"In the search for your personal martial truth you can't discount these opportunities as learning experiences. If you do you’re in danger of putting your art and approach to combat on a sugar pedestal."

Very well put.

"In the search for your personal martial truth you can't discount these opportunities as learning experiences. If you do you’re in danger of putting your art and approach to combat on a sugar pedestal."


I like that. It is like Bruce Lees theory. If you never fight, then you are only dry land swimming, you need to jump in the water and see if you swim.

Tim,

back to Enforcer's question....What kinds of xingyi techniques cant be practised with boxing gloves?



What Up,
If I go to a school where I don't know anyone, and, if I'm impressed enough with the teacher to hang around and talk to him after class- and he or anyone there (who have never met me before) ask me to show them some BaGua- I'd show them.

If they challange me and it gets ugly- I'll handle it just fine.

just like to add my two cents. i think i understand what What Up is trying to say. demonstrations have a habit of turning into full blown fights, at least here in the philippines. if you do a demo at another school where you don't know anyone, things usually get ugly because the students of the school will want to prove that their style is more effective, etc. don't know how it works in the western world but it happens often enough here. people here are very aggressive, especially the kickboxing guys.

i agree with What Up in sparring only with guys who are your friends, or with whom you have some sort of relationship, as opposed to just sparring with someone you don't know. could get ugly because of ego.

I have got to agree with Mozart on this one. I don't think you should spar outside of your classmates etc.

Your intentions might be innocent, but there is always that one person that wants to get down and really fight.

Shane, "why would someone who can't fight for real be a 'martial arts teacher'?"

Good question, what's your point?

my question was raised by your observation "think of all the students a teacher would lose if he was shown up to be unable to fight for real."

My point is someone who can't 'fight for real' shouldn't bill themselves as a 'Martial Arts Teacher'. (it makes sense to me that a teacher of fighting arts ought to be able to fight)

Imagine how many dance students would go elsewhere when they realized their teacher can't dance.

I'm curious- can you answer the question?

hehe... that's the way it should be... but should isn't reality in the current modern world. the way of the fist has been replaced by the way of the dollar and ego.

after all, it's easier to talk •••• rather than do ••••, don't you think? and if you're really good at talking, you can brain wash your students into thinking that you ARE the •••• without even moving a muscle

sad isn't it?

fortunately there are some guys out there who aren't afraid to saddle up. mike patterson, dan docherty, and tim walk the talk.

I have a good question(sort of). What if you were learning from a teacher that never fought? What if the teacher was lucky enough to never had to defend himself?

I am not talking about tournaments or UFC type fights etc. What if a teacher/person learned Hsing I and practice it for the sole purpose of health and self preservation... do you think the person could teach you to fight if they have never fought outside of self protection(even if self protection was talking their way out of a fight?)

Shane, Mozart took the words right out of my mouth.

Rich, you make a point that most "martial artists" ignore. Unfortunately, teachers who have a lot of experience fighting for real are few and far between, not to mention reluctant to be open about their pasts for obvious reasons.

Kenneth and Mozart, would either of you want to learn to dance from someone who can't dance?

Rich,
Sparring and competing count as fighting. There is a big diference in being certain you can use your martial art and thinking you can.

Shane

Shane,
I agree and understand the point you are making.

I knew this guy that learned a grab bag of martial arts from a little old Korean man once.

The Korean guy taught out of his garage and would only teach his family and luckily my friend(lived two doors down). They never sparred with gloves or entered tournaments, they only worked on forms, excercises, and drills(push hands and chi sao).

My friend was telling me he promised the guy not to compete or show what he had learned and all that jazz.

I asked him how would he knew if he could really apply it. So he said to attack him... I did and WOW.

I dont know how you would view it... is his push hands, chi sao, and empty hand techniques with his class mates sparring?

I have competed in tournaments and know you can not judge yourself by them, they are biased alot of the times.

Either way... I think most people can tell which teachers are just flashy kicks or know their style as a fighting style(even if you are not a san shou/ ufc fighter).

Rich,
We consider any type of paired practice that involves some level of non-cooperation and resistance to be a "sparring" drill. The level of intensity and parameters can vary greatly from simply tring to push or pull each other down or "out of bounds" to intense MMA style full contact training.

Sometimes "push hands" types of drills are sparring in the above sense, very often they are not.

Hi Rich,

The little Koren teacher probably had some fighting experience, right?

As for not being able to judge yourself based on tournaments.... win or lose (by bias or fairness) you learn allot from fighting another person who is intent on beating you.

It's the people who never bothered to do that learning who I don't think should be 'martial arts teachers'.

I'd rather learn from a guy who's lost every fight he's ever been in than learn from a guy who has never done any fighting at all.

Shane,
I agree with you 100%... that is my philosophy. I do not care if I get beat everytime, never score well in forms, or impress the masses with a pretty uniform. I will keep going back for my own experiences. Sometimes I do well and other times not.


I heard a teacher once say "a fighter is the one who looses and goes back because he wants to win" and "a winner that quits after he loses is not a fighter".

So I completely agree with you there.

Tim,
Thanks for the response. I view practice the same way... from the simple to the extreme can be viewed as sparring.

Unfortunately and maybe rightfully so... unless you say you have fought san shou or MMA you are not taken seriously.

shane, course i wouldn't take dancing lessons from someone who can't dance. i won't take fighting lessons from someone who can't fight. don't quite understand why you asked that.

Shane, sparring counts as fighting? What fantasy world do you live in?

I'd like to show you.

LOL, perhaps you can write a sci-fi trilogy.