Hi Dragonprawn,

fwiw, there are those who believe that *all* martial arts were first designed to allow the "weaker to defeat the stronger." Boxing, like all mas (sport or not), is a science of skill. In bouts, an attempt is made to keep the opponents as equally matched, in weight, as possible.
Best,
Steve James

Dragonprawn: When Matt refers to masters of "dead" arts, he means people who don't train in an Alive manner, regardless of the style. What is Alive? Alive means training with resistance, motion and timing, in a nutshell. For further clarification, go to www.straightblastgym.com or buy his first video which spends a lot of time on this highly important concept.

As for his feelings toward IMAs and TMAs, he's not crazy about them because he doesn't feel they train in an Alive manner and he doesn't feel they provide the best delivery systems available. If someone were to come along and prove him wrong, he's certainly open-minded enough to take notice, but that hasn't happened yet.

Lautaro

Yet another article

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/evolution.html

Skeptic,

I call him a serious teacher.
I bet my trousers you have neither met -and trained with- a pro boxing woman nor a (very seriously skilled) professional street IMA lady sifu.
I like skeptics since myself belong to that category. Different to many anyhow, I go see with my own eyes. But in case you did so, it means you'd rather absorb a good jab to your mouth instead than a kick to your 'twins' followed by a finger thrust to the eyes and storm of elbows +knees...
Cheers.

Tim,

What Jeff described sounded more like scenario training than sport training. Then I read your reply & you made what he was saying sound more like sport training. So was Matt' approach incorrect in drawing such a large distinction between the two types? maybe the two types of training are more alike than he realizes.

Chris,

In a way I see your point about athleticism vs. skill. Yet I think that there is alot of overlap here too.

Take the NBA. These guys have more athleticism than the players in the 1950s. Do they have less skill? Well you could argue that they lack certain old-fashioned fundamentals, but these days coaches are aware of this potential lack & tend to address it. At the same time they have developed new & improved skills to complement their high athleticism.

The same could probably be said of MAs as well. However, there also exist other possiblities which go beyond your distinction. For example, how do you describe the best TCC body type. Someone could look kind of out of shape & still possess not only a high level of TCC skill, but excellent physical health to boot (better even then these highly tuned/oft injured b-ball players for example). All that good health may translate into athleticism of a different sort, for example a deep breather may get less winded doing something aerobic than a wind sprinter/stair stepper.

Steve,

Thanks & happy holidays. We miss you here at the crossroads of the universe!

Lautaro,

If Matt hasn't encountered any IMAs who practice in an "alive" manner he simply hasn't looked hard enough. Period.

George,

Now that's what I call an excellent article. Thanks. The whole site is interesting. What they say about hitting is pretty right on IMO.

In my TCC training we do work on twisting the waist more & keeping the hips from moving too much. This takes a long amount of time & the right teacher to acomplish. Without this I think hip twisting would be next best (like a good boxer I guess).

Other than that, what they say about most people punching out of range & with just arm strenth, as well as the overreliance on speed over power is too true. Their mention straight power from a circle also hit home with me.

It is very queit here in the Psychiatric Center around the holidays. One reason is that the patients get fed alot. It is the one time of the year when I actually find myself getting bored.

To wit - three posts in a row!

While we were on the topic of boxing I wanted to wish everyone a happy & healthy Boxing Day!

Jeff,
I posted Matt's article hoping to provide a topic worthy of discussion, and you delivered (well, everyone that responded made excellent points, but Jeff gave me the opportunity to explain my point. Jeff is cool).

Chris,
I have to totally agree about the need for balance.

Dragonprawn,
Right, I think Matt's point was that there shouldn't be such a distinction between combat sports and self defense, that training in combat sports provides a valuable foundation for street techniques.

Adding something to this debate, I would like to inform all SERIOUS researchers in the IMA&combat field that in March will be held a seminar (Los Angeles area) given by a famous INTERNAL m.a. teacher. He's 45, doesn't do anything except his own art and is available to explain anybody the good way or the hard way how IMA work.
Skeptics are warmly invited (by myself only)to enter the gym and challenge the 45 years old sifu, maybe trying to drag him on the floor..
Since this isn't a commercial advertisement, if someone is interested in going to see with his own eyes IMArtists who never refuse a challenge (verbally, sitting at the table or physically, on the mat),I will write him personally the needed information.
I know I must sound nasty but: all 'skeptics' in south Cali area who, from now on, will keep posting 'skeptic' comments whitout having gone and seen (felt)by themselves, are to be considered very very low. I do reaffirm that anybody can enter the seminar and challenge either the teacher or his assistants, no problem.
Cheers.

European,
If you want, you can post the details of the seminar.

Thanks Tim, but I don't know if is a good idea.
I would seem very partisan of a particular school and sincerely I don't give a damn! I just want to give my fellow comrades in the martial arts an opporunity, as well as giving it to skeptics.
Anybody can find me at: thewildkaos@hotmail.com
Cheers

p.s
the seminar is 11.12 January

European

Is it Su Dong Chen you are talking about? If it is him, and given his real fighting experience, I would suggest that people don't challenge him but go and learn what he has to teach.

stc

stc,

no, it's not him, I don't know that gentleman. I do anyway agree with you, people should go and learn but even among the best people there's always someone who can convince himself only through trying (being beaten).
Do you remember St. Thomas? His 'intructor' was pretty good but..

If your goal is learning, theres only one person you need to challenge...

Man from M.
I'm going a bit back now but I was a student of Tom Bisio, who studied with Vince B. and I can attest that their callistenics are pretty tough. The exercises, apart from the obvious health benefit, sometimes help you break some barriers. At some point, your body can't do things with force, (you just don't have any left) and it finds another way to be efficient.

On a different note, I was wondering on people's oppinions on these stories about "Masters" who were tiny, or in not very good shape (overweight), that were able to deal with people half their age, stronger and more fit than them. I'm talking about guys like, Wang Shu Jin, Liu Hung Shie (Kumar's teacher) and even Chen Man Ching. Is that just a case of incredibly superior skill or just stories?

Miguel

Miguel P.,

Though some people are overweight, under-exercised & without skills, I've known several rolly-polly (fat) types that had had enough exercise & skill to move well & put just about anyone in a "hurt locker." So don't think that all "overweight" people can't move well (or well enough).

Hey Mike:
Actually that's not what I meant to say. Sorry for not being clear enough. My first Aikido teacher mus have been a good 350lbs. and he had skills coming out of his pores. He was very good at what he did. Yet again I never saw him in an all out fight with a highly conditioned athlete. I was just curious about some of the stories that I've heard. I've never seen a litle old guy, beat the crap out of well condition young man, although I've heard stories like that all the time.
If I had to choose, I guess I would choose skill over athleticism. Thank goodness I don't have to. I'm neither highly conditioned or highly skilled. I'll take what I can get.

Miguel

In my loose 'definition' athleticism relates to attributes that you are BORN with (e.g. fast twitch/slow twitch muscle ratio),while skills relates to attributes you can ACQUIRE, obviously there is some overlap here.

Your athleticism is LIMITED by your genetics, and no matter how hard or correctly you train your potential is bound within those limits, whereas it could be argued that skills are almost unlimited in 'potential' developement and modification.

To me it would make sense for individuals to be aware and honest with their strengths and limitations in this area, and find a DYNAMIC balance in training and actual fighting that reflects this. Age and experience will also vary the ratio.

I would also argue that most people who engage in some sort of 'non-coperative' training/sparring would 'instinctively' be aware and make the ajustments without necessarily doing so deliberately/consciously .

Miguel,

I've heard stories also. Here's a few:

If I'm to believe my landlord, she used to hang out with muscular, athetic types (& there's some evidence that this indeed is correct); she claims that one of her tough, young boyfriends (a street-wise Chicago man) was unable to harm a little guy who used his knowledge of Karate to evade his assaults -- on the street (apparently he was impressed & began to study Karate). I'm uncertain whether to believe this one or not; but the following stories I do trust:

"Master Jack" (Jack Ngyuen) is a very small man, & my room-mate & the late Phil Hall -- both much bigger than Jack -- simultaneously held Jack in an armbar while pressing him into a wall; Jack got out of it easily! On another occassion Phil thought that he could make Jack spill his coffee if he attacked him; Jack leaned back (avoiding Phil's force) without spilling a drop; this irritated Phil who then attacked a second time; so Jack knocked Phil unconscious from his leaned-back position & still didn't spill any of his coffee. I've known all three of these characters -- & these are believable stories.

Skill ove brawn all the way!