Interesting discussion!

"A race car driver can have all the driving skills in the world, but if his tires are flat and he has no gas...."

You must train "alive" if you are planning to reproduce your skills in a real situations.

"Awareness is vital, for the first strike may be the last"

http://slate.msn.com/id/2080814/

"The enemy we're fighting is a bit different than the one we war-gamed against." - Wallace on 3/27/03

"Instead of a free-play, two-sided game ¡K it simply became a scripted exercise." Van Riper on 4/13/02


("Above all, dont start from a conclusion" - Tao of JKD)

Spanky,

If Van Riper is the Marine Corps general I think he is, then what's being discussed (that is, the context) is where the US Army decided to have a war game with the Marines as the "aggressor" force (a very common practice that usually embarrasses the Army brass); this is much like a sporting event in which rules are followed, but each is free to do their own thing; there's winners & losers (yet not pre-determined)-- and usually no one gets too seriously hurt; however this time the Army decided that they would add rules so as to control when & where & how the aggressor force could strike: a totally scripted sham -- a bit like a "fixed" fight -- only more choreographed (thus a pre-determined "winner" -- so why play?)!

That's why the Marine general walked out on the sham, er "wargame." Horay for him! The Marine Corps needs MEN like him.

The US Army has some fine men as well; unfortunately, not very many make it to the top decision-making slots. CYA (cover your ass) is the general rule that ignores, or seeks to hide, the truth of US Army matters. Speaking of hiding the truth of US Army matters, do you recall for how long the US Congress is allowed to fund an army (a standing army = the bane of liberty)-- by Law? Note that there's no such funding restriction upon the US Navy or militias. Hmm...

The people who argue about which is more effective are the type of people that prefer to watch rather than do. By this they are typically the ones who love watching the events rather than participating from them.

Athletes that participate in the UFC's and such are, as Keeper of Secrets noted, highly conditioned people. They train to compete, and typically they don't have very long careers (except for the really good ones).

You just have to find an art that clicks with you, whether it be BJJ or Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu.

WraithAlcon above said it best, I think. I recently was perusing one of the Gracie's BJJ books and came across a section on the "genius" of Jigoro Kano, founder of Judo. His name has always been the bane of the more "serious" jujitsu practitioners because of how he sporterized their art, making it less effective. The Gracies, however, used this exact same argument to suggest that by giving practitioners a santized version which could be used in an uninhibited fashion (as opposed to the care one would be forced to take with more dangerous moves) Kano created a valuable tool for faster, more instinctive internalizations of balance and movement principles. Instead of arguing about which form of training is best, I feel the true martial artist experiences them all to make sure all bases are covered. Forms are necessary foundational power training. Pre-arranged forms with a partner are great for practicing highly damaging or lethal techniques impractical to allow in sparring. Sparring is necessary for developing proper spontaneous response. And of course, reaction drills are a must. But don't take my word for it. After reading Tim's responses about his toughest opponents, I'm gonna take up a judo class!

This thread has some how became corrupted. It starts with Tim replying to a ghost post and it was also missing Tim’s original article.

I tried to reconstruct this thread the best I could.

To compete in a ring it takes a lot of extra time just learning the rules and changing your training to fit those rules. A lot of people just don't feel like taking the time to do that. Also it takes alot of stamina and conditioning, because it is not unexpected and short like a street encounter. And there are plenty of CMA people competing full contact. Recently, Adam Hsu took some Baji students to a no hold barred tournement and cleaned up. Shooter (Bruce) is a tai chi guy who fights in nhb matches. Etc.

it's not what system you train, it's how you train it. CMA's have allready proved their effectiveness in and out of the ring by people that train correctly, as I stated earlier. If you're serious about learning and not just being a jackass, just ask on KFM about recent CMA sucesses in the ring and you should get plenty first hand info. There's Adam Hsu's Baji people; Tim Cartmell's Xingyi, Taiji, & Bagua; David Ross's Lama kungfu; Black Taoist's(forget his real name) Bagua taking on Chinese pro San Shou(who've kicked plenty of non-cma ass in recent years); Wudang Taiji in Europe's been succesful in multiple formats I think... the info's out there, but if you really want to continue to look like a complete idiot and argue your completely wrong point, feel free

Students of Adam Hsu cleaned up and NHB tournament? I am realy interested in date and location of this event. Can you please post the particulars. (I hope it is not unsubstantiated hearsay)
K.

I found one of the threads I first saw it in. This is a basic description:

"There was a big MMA competition that happens every year up here. I almost went. In the past it has been entertaining but it's mostly karate guys with a couple of decent groundfighters thrown in the mix. There was a Wing Chun guy up here that has done well in the past.

Anyway I was gonna go but I didn't. Figured it would be the same as before, even though I had heard some guys were comming up from California. Figured they would be BJJ players.

Boy was I wrong...

I found out today that four student of Adam Hsu came up and wiped the floor with everybody. They used Baji and all of their fights were over in 30 seconds or less. Suffice to say they won the competition.

I'm looking for more info on these guys. Did anybody see the competition or hear about it? Or maybe you've heard about them competing in some other competiton.

Please let me know if you've got any knowledge of these guys."

I bumped it to the top to see if anyone can point me in the right direction for info. Someone asked if it might've been Ted Mancusio leading the group instead. One of them said Adam Hsu was still in Taiwan(though he has students and a school in Cali.)

Re: Combat to Sports.

“But the natural competitive tendencies inherent in human nature eventually demand an outlet” I say this should read “But the natural competitive tendencies inherent in the human nature of people who lack personal development (which produces self realization) eventually demand an outlet.” Personal development of confidence in character is possessed by those who are occupied with being the best version of their self that they can be (personal development) not the best, as in better than anyone else.

It is this frame of reference, the artists being the best he can be, his effort of presenting his best self to the world (without concern about being better than everyone else) that distinguishes kung fu from sport martial arts. When you have personal development, you have inner knowing (kung fu). Kung fu is what makes competition irrelevant. For the ones who possess confidence in character, the ones who “know” from their hearts, realize that being judged by other is superfluous. Those who know have no need to compete. Because they know themselves and this inner knowing is an attribute of those who possess kung fu (knowing).

Pugilism is similar to a beauty contests for young women, except that it is dominated by young men, or should I say “older adolescents;” actually it is even more degrading. Those who possess attributes of kung fu realize who they are because they have developed a self-definition that does not depend upon how they control external objects (people, cars, money etc) or how they look. They base their worth on their inner control and the relationships they have with themselves, others and their spirituality.

As far as “who is the best” goes, if you want to practice fighting you need to practice killing. If you want to practice killing and see if you’re the best at it, I would recommend choosing off an opponent such as Fidel Castro. Now let’s see how far you get with sports martial arts or even kung fu (Of course, the authentic kung fu artist would not entertain such fantasy). My point is, even if you got on the island your hand-to-hand techniques would be irrelevant, as you could not get close enough to him (Castro). However if this was competitive and you let your intentions be known (seeking to kill Castro), I bet he would eliminate you before you eliminated him. Bigger and better outfits such as the CIA have tried and failed.

All this martial arts fantasy stuff about fighting needs to be put into perspective. There are those that fight to kill and survive and there are those who play sport games. Then there are those that use simulated combat as system to enrich themselves by coming to understand spirit, strategy, the art of advantage and the art of humanity in search of completeness, personal development.

Mon Haw Woo,

Fair enough, but there's no arguing that non-cooperative training brings your skills to a higher level. Thereby allowing you to acheive new "personal bests".

You assume that everyone competing is on an ego trip. I disagree. You wll never know who you are either physically or otherwise without testing yourself. There's a lot of truth in any physical challenge and quite often can open your eyes to who you are or where you are with your physical, mental (focus), emotional (sportsmanship)development good or bad. Accepting where you are and working with it IS character and skill development rolled into one.

Rather than approaching competition with a "who's the best?" attitude why not try a "OK, what am I weak in? What do I need to work on? Have I perfected that technique I've spent so much time on?" attitude?

There's no crime in exploring everything martial arts has to offer (i.e. sparring, competition, solo training, meditation, etc.) in an effort to continue to achieve new personal bests.

You say yourself...
"Then there are those that use simulated combat as system to enrich themselves by coming to understand spirit, strategy, the art of advantage and the art of humanity in search of completeness, personal development."

Are you implying that these people that you refer to would never compete? Sometimes who you really are competing with is yourself and when that's the case it is a perfect example of the self development you're talking about. But if you never push yourself beyond the comfort zone and experience the adrenaline, fear, and focus that comes along with competing you can't reach your potential.

Quite often high-level competetive athletes in any discipline are pretty cool people. It's all perspective.

- Erik

MHW,
If I harshly interpret your words they seem to say that martial arts is a dead discipline, not unlike Latin, which is a dead language.

MA must be practiced in a community and tried and repeatedly tested. It is not just a theory. It is the thory AND practice of fighting.

Many scholars can learn Latin, but they will be able to do no more than read. They will never speak it in conversatiuon. Whatever they're presonal goals are, just "knowing that they know" a language is not enough. Similarly, it is not enough just to "know that you know" martial arts. And ego is needed to compete, but you musn't confuse self-delusion with "inner king fu."

Erik, by saying "It's all perspective" you unconsciously agree with MHW... even though the rest of your post politely disagrees. you should change your words to "it's all comparative," ... since perspective can include truth as well as delusion.

Anyway, MHW, what the heck do you mean by "inner kung fu"? It would be easier to see your point if you explained it some.

Hi Sorrel Booke,

You're absolutely right and MHW does have a point. As with most topics there is more than one side (perspective)and each contains an element of truth.

I was hoping he would look at the other side. I wouldn't say that he's absolutely wrong either, would you? I mean I've known competitive martial artists who couldn't wait for the opportunity to crack someone in the jaw. MHW does indeed have a point when he refers to that mindset. These types most definitely do exist. I don't disagree with him so much as I think he's only looking at it with this perspective. But the other exists as well.

Fortunately in my experience most competitive athletes, and martial artists in particular, come across as having a solid character. I've also found that it's the backyard ninjas & neighborhood "masters" with a chip on their shoulder who never truly explore the reality of martial arts that come off as a little whacked and wound up in their own little martial art fantasies. For lack of technical skill they focus on the fairy tale.

A well rounded and experienced martial artist usually tends to be a pretty well-rounded individual. Although it's physical, a martial art is a thinking man's art.

Just my perspective.

- Erik

In the dangerous streets where I grew up we shot to kill! Sure, BBs can't inflict a life-threatening wound but nevertheless we had the intent and focus to kill. In my opinion there is no better way to train.

If I could smuggle a BBgun into Cuba I'm certain I could pop Castro or at very least push him into a display of paint cans before running away like an angry rabbit.

It's obvious from Mon Haw Woo's post that he is just another in the endless parade of "deadly" yet "enlightened" Kung Fu masters that is intimidated by men that can really fight.

Let me guess: Mon Haw Woo practiced some "deadly" type of Kung Fu but never really sparred or fought anyone. Then one day he saw the UFC or some other reality combat show and realized he'd been wasting his time. Now he is on a crusade to save his ego by trying to convince people that do know how to fight they are just competing because THEIR ego is out of control.

Mon Haw Woo, if you never compete how do you know your Kung Fu will work?

Older adolescent boxers may not have reached your egoless stage of kung fu enlightenment, but they are confident they can knock someone out for real if the need ever arises (with the possible exception of Fidel Castro).

Maybe you should take some time to figure out who actually has the fragile ego, and then go learn some real martial arts.

ekiidkje,
your unforgiving diagnosis of MHW is quite hilarious.

erik,
I wholeheartedly agree with you that MA is a thinking man's art. But what art isn't? I'm sure Picasso thunk. I'm sure Yo-Yo Ma is a thinker. And from the posts I've read, Tim Cartmell is also a thinker. But, when does the practitioner become an artist? Is it an event (such as winning a match, protecting a loved one, getting your first real student) or is it a process eternally unrealized, yet constantly improving?

Furthermore,
I would be hard put to say that because of MA, and the requisite "thinking," its "artistic" nature that it has never crossed my mind that I want to knock someone in the jaw. I regularly have (semi)violent thoughts, and increasedly so since I began practicing MA. However, I've never competed, never been in a street fight. But you could say that I am "itchin'" for a fight.

yet citizehship and social situations obligate me otherwise, competition excepted.

Sorrel

You might want to consider relevant combat sports competition as a safe and sane way to scratch your itch.

Tim,
you are right. Of course, the reason that I mention this "psychiatric" point is that the martial artist of "solid character" Erik mentioned, is evinced only through actions, not thoughts. The thing is, I forgot my point half way through writing it, but groggily posted it anyway... sorry about that.

And, though martial arts has little wiggle room when characterized as a King of the Hill discipline, it does take lots of cooperation and egoless practice to rise to the top. And those of solid character are most likely to leave behind the whacked up backyard ninjas cracking imaginary jaws, perpetually frustrated. My point was simply that sane thoughts cross the mind of the insane just as insane thoughts cross the minds of those with solid character, and if they happen to be MA practitioners, those insane thoughts can go awry if not held in check by safe and sane competition.
Thanks for the input.