Erik,

Awesome reply, thank you.

Fair enough, but there's no arguing that non-cooperative training brings your skills to a higher level. Thereby allowing you to acheive new "personal bests".

Repy: Like all things, competition has a place. I was an angry man most of my life and I competed relentlessly with everything. Then I came to “know.” What did I come to know? I really cannot say. It is like the Tao, the more you speak of it the further you are from understanding it. It is a feeling. Do not misunderstand what I mean by “knowing.” Knowing is a state of awareness in which other alternatives do not exist because they offer less. You could compare knowing as “more” and “not knowing” as less. Why would you want to trade your more for less? It would be like trading confidence for insecurity.
Back to the point, once I came to know, the need to prove things went away. What I am trying to say is that my fear of not knowing (fear is the root of all anger) vanished. And what replaced the anger was awareness; knowing that my personal power came from myself. Once I knew that I was my own authority I know longer felt the pressure to escape fear by using alcohol, drugs, mindless television (sitcoms)or sports (as entertainment) . My authority replaced my anger with awareness and I no longer viewed myself as in competition with anything. And I felt no need to play anybody’s game by participating under their rules, unless I was bored and searching for amusement.
I have realized that at most times going with things is better than going against them. Cooperation is superior to competition at almost all levels of life. Playing is fun and I encourage the camaraderie that sports develop, but getting hung up on winning and receiving the financial prize is a trap. Anyways there is no one best person. It all changes. One-day one team beats the other and the next day the same teams play and the other wins. So who is the best? Its day-to-day, moment-to-moment; it depends on who is making the rules. When on has achieved a high level of personal development, he does not succumb to the rules of others. He makes his own rules from his accumulated experience, the true basis of authentic power.

Spirituality is important in the martial arts as it lets us weave the invisible (knowing, confidence, character) into the visible (all that is outside us).


Accepting where you are and working with it is the Development of character.

Reply: One’s consistent behavior is your character. And the ability to maintain your consistent behavior under adverse conditions reveals one’s confidence.


You assume that everyone competing is on an ego trip. I disagree. You wll never know who you are either physically or otherwise without testing yourself. There's a lot of truth in any physical challenge and quite often can open your eyes to who you are or where you are with your physical, mental (focus), emotional (sportsmanship)development good or bad. Accepting where you are and working with it IS character and skill development rolled into one.

Reply: Erik, I try to assume nothing, but at times fail. However, why you are competing (your intentions) determines your rewards. There are many ways to arrive at the same destination. For example, my teacher arrived at humanity through warriorship (he was a street fighter). Then there are those who arrive at warriorship through humanity: Tibetan Buddhist Trungpa for example (see: Shambala sacred path of the warrior). There is more than truth in physical challenge. The fear involved in it gives us an opportunity to overcome our selves (command the mind) and is motivation to transform ourselves (to a higher or next level?).


Rather than approaching competition with a "who's the best?" attitude why not try a "OK, what am I weak in? What do I need to work on? Have I perfected that technique I've spent so much time on?" attitude?


There's no crime in exploring everything martial arts has to offer (i.e. sparring, competition, solo training, meditation, etc.) in an effort to continue to achieve new personal bests.

Reply: I endorse refinement and sports are fun.

You say yourself...
"Then there are those that use simulated combat as system to enrich themselves by coming to understand spirit, strategy, the art of advantage and the art of humanity in search of completeness, personal development."

Are you implying that these people that you refer to would never compete? Sometimes who you really are competing with is yourself and when that's the case it is a perfect example of the self development you're talking about. But if you never push yourself beyond the comfort zone and experience the adrenaline, fear, and focus that comes along with competing you can't reach your potential.

Reply: I agree. ( I hope I answered some of this earlier)My opinion is that there are much better ways than “sports competition” and other ways than competition in general.

Quite often high-level competetive athletes in any discipline are pretty cool people. It's all perspective.

Reply: The Gracie’s are class people, gracious and very competitive. I was there with them when they were photographing their book.

To some it up, “There are those that fight to kill and survive and there are those who play sport games. Then there are those that use simulated combat as system to enrich themselves by coming to understand spirit, strategy, the art of advantage and the art of humanity in search of completeness, personal development.”

Confidnce in Caracter,
MHW

Sorrel,

If I harshly interpret your words they seem to say that martial arts is a dead discipline, not unlike Latin, which is a dead language.

Reply: Martial arts are hardly dead. That was a harsh interpretation. Marital arts seem to be the dead discipline (attempted humor).

MA must be practiced in a community and tried and repeatedly tested. It is not just a theory. It is the thory AND practice of fighting.

Many scholars can learn Latin, but they will be able to do no more than read. They will never speak it in conversatiuon. Whatever they're presonal goals are, just "knowing that they know" a language is not enough. Similarly, it is not enough just to "know that you know" martial arts. And ego is needed to compete, but you musn't confuse self-delusion with "inner king fu."

Reply: Sweat, hard work and a man doing his best, all else is less important.

Reply: I think you maybe confusing those who fight (street fighters) with martial artists. I did not write “inner kung fu” although it is a good deduction. Inner knowing is explained on my reply to Erik.

Erik, by saying "It's all perspective" you unconsciously agree with MHW... even though the rest of your post politely disagrees. you should change your words to "it's all comparative," ... since perspective can include truth as well as delusion.

Reply: It is my opinion that Erik consciously agreed. Perspective is as one sees it (if he has integrity: personal honesty). Whether it is truth or delusion is an outside call.

Anyway, MHW, what the heck do you mean by "inner kung fu"? It would be easier to see your point if you explained it some.

Reply: When one has become a skilled fighter, one needs to be able to use his kung fu (knowing / education) in the outside world. And because there is no great demand for combat skills, this means that one’s education must be used for other than fighting, or it is less than practical and in my opinion a bad investment (if it can be used for fighting only.) Inner kung fu (I like that, thank you Sorrel) allows you to relinquish space without giving up ground. It enables one to have a commanding presence. It is like a smile on the face of one who knows.

C&C

MHW

Hi Sorrel Booke,

You're absolutely right and MHW does have a point. As with most topics there is more than one side (perspective)and each contains an element of truth.

I was hoping he would look at the other side. I wouldn't say that he's absolutely wrong either, would you? I mean I've known competitive martial artists who couldn't wait for the opportunity to crack someone in the jaw. MHW does indeed have a point when he refers to that mindset. These types most definitely do exist. I don't disagree with him so much as I think he's only looking at it with this perspective. But the other exists as well.

Fortunately in my experience most competitive athletes, and martial artists in particular, come across as having a solid character. I've also found that it's the backyard ninjas & neighborhood "masters" with a chip on their shoulder who never truly explore the reality of martial arts that come off as a little whacked and wound up in their own little martial art fantasies. For lack of technical skill they focus on the fairy tale.

A well rounded and experienced martial artist usually tends to be a pretty well-rounded individual. Although it's physical, a martial art is a thinking man's art.

Just my perspective.

Reply:

I agree wholeheartedly

Confidence in Character

MHW

Eki,

It's obvious from Mon Haw Woo's post that he is just another in the endless parade of "deadly" yet "enlightened" Kung Fu masters that is intimidated by men that can really fight.

Reply: Funny, you assume I am a master.

Let me guess: Mon Haw Woo practiced some "deadly" type of Kung Fu but never really sparred or fought anyone. Then one day he saw the UFC or some other reality combat show and realized he'd been wasting his time. Now he is on a crusade to save his ego by trying to convince people that do know how to fight they are just competing because THEIR ego is out of control.

Mon Haw Woo, if you never compete how do you know your Kung Fu will work?


Reply: I have used it t protect, provide and to communicate. I have used it to hurt people who did not deserve it, (just to see if it would work) entertaining my own vanity. I was wrong to do that. I regret it.

Older adolescent boxers may not have reached your egoless stage of kung fu enlightenment, but they are confident they can knock someone out for real if the need ever arises (with the possible exception of Fidel Castro).

Maybe you should take some time to figure out who actually has the fragile ego, and then go learn some real martial arts.

Reply: I choose to practice kung fu.

C&C

MHW

Tim,

Sorrel

You might want to consider relevant combat sports competition as a safe and sane way to scratch your itch.

Reply: Can you please explain what “relevant combat sports competition” is?
I am truly interested in your definition

Thank you,

MHW

Tim,
you are right. Of course, the reason that I mention this "psychiatric" point is that the martial artist of "solid character" Erik mentioned, is evinced only through actions, not thoughts. The thing is, I forgot my point half way through writing it, but groggily posted it anyway... sorry about that.

And, though martial arts has little wiggle room when characterized as a King of the Hill discipline, it does take lots of cooperation and egoless practice to rise to the top. And those of solid character are most likely to leave behind the whacked up backyard ninjas cracking imaginary jaws, perpetually frustrated. My point was simply that sane thoughts cross the mind of the insane just as insane thoughts cross the minds of those with solid character, and if they happen to be MA practitioners, those insane thoughts can go awry if not held in check by safe and sane competition.
Thanks for the input.

Reply: I suggest you practice “inner positioning” to enhance your physical, ethical and moral stance. The movie “a beautiful mind” (Russell Crowe, Ed Harris) does a good job of explaining inner positioning. We all have demons; the trick is not to entertain them, or let them entertains us.

C&C

MHW


This was fun and I learned from you guys. See you next week, same time, same station.

MHW,

You asked:
"Can you please explain what 'relevant sports competition' is."

If Sorrel practices grappling, I'd suggest Judo, BJJ or submissions wrestling as relevant sports competition.

If he practices striking arts I'd suggest kickboxing competition.

If Sorrel is interested in testing himself in the most realistic manner, I'd suggest mixed martial arts competition.

Hi Tim,

Thank you for your answer. I think you misread my question. I asked what "relevant “combat” sports competition" is. In my opinion, “combat sport” competition is an oxymoron.

Confidence in Character

MHW

MHW,

My dictionary defines "combat" as "to contend or struggle."

If you ever participate in any of the above mentioned competitions, you'll understand why they are called "combat sports."

Good point Tim.

Tim,

Thank you for the prompt reply.


MHW,

My dictionary defines "combat" as "to contend or struggle."

Relpy: We enjoy a semantic difference. I define combat as “fighting for your life.”

The word “contention” does not seem to me to represent the possible consequences of fighting in an alley with no one around to protect or help you (no ref to blow the whistle). And in my opinion, “struggle” does not have the dynamic feeling of attacking, it seems timid or defensive, unorganized.

It is my opinion, and when I use the word combat, it signifies using any means to win, including guns and bombs, fire, money, contacts etc, anything to eliminate the enemy.


If you ever participate in any of the above mentioned competitions, you'll understand why they are called "combat sports."

Reply:If you ever participate in warfare or fighting for your life, you’ll understand why I divide the two.

Look. I get the feeling that people think I am belittling sports. I am not. I am just saying that sports are not combat. An auto race where the drivers race in cars at 200 mph while risking their life is at a much greater danger level than racing to get to work on time. Also it is on a professional level. If people want to be combatants, they should fight. I would recommend scratching this itch by being a professional, such as a police officer, military personel, or even a bouncer.
Real combat has so many more variables to it, that it is incomparable to anything else.


Combat requires the psychological acceptance of killing. How many people could live with themselves after killing someone. Sports competition develops a “sport response” to fighting that is different from the “survival response” developed through combat.
You will get an adrenaline rush from sport competition, but I doubt if you will see your life flash in front of you face.

Sports are cool.

Personal development is essential.

Combat is deadly.

C&C

MHW

Here is something fron Artful Power / The Tao Te Ching of Kung Fu - Chapter 68

68

The greatest victories
avoid conflict.

Great warriors know opponents well.
Great businesspersons mutually win.
Great communicators mutually listen.
Great teachers teach what is needed.

The great ones do not compete.

It is not that they do not like to use their skills,
it is because they understand
that life has no unbendable rules.
Therefore they don't view life
as a competitive game.

Not viewing life as a game,
they are free to interact
with grace and harmony.

(companion text)

THE GREAT ONES

one

The greatest victories are the ones that are never known; they avoid exhibition.

two

By gathering knowledge of the opponent, the great warriors use intelligence to win. Great businesspersons provide profits for everyone. The great communicators speak and listen equally well. The great teachers instruct according to the students and the lessons.

three

The great warriors are inaccessible; they cannot be attacked, thus there is no competition. The great businesspersons provide generously; satisfying their associates, there is no need to compete. The great communicators provide time for talking and listening; everyone is heard, and communication is non-competitive.

four

To be free from rules is to be free from sport competition. Free from competition, one is left to contend with himself before contending with others. Contending with oneself allows identification of the degree to which one uses the art of advantage for self-gain. When one perceives the vanity in competition, one is likely to be more humane.

five

Free of competition, contention and conflict, the great ones graciously unite.


Confidence & Character

MHW

When I first discovered this forum, I naively sought out how others progressed past the training stage into real fights. I was surprised when I recieved a rash of •••• for this. Now I see why there was so much scorn. I'm so embarassed.

MHW,

I agree that combat sports competion is not "real" (in the sense of life or death) fighting. I also agree that contact sparring (no matter the level of intensity) is not "real" fighting. But both are a lot closer to the feeling of, and are better designed to train the skills necessary for real fighting than pretending to fight with a cooperative "opponent."

When you practiced Kung Fu, did you concurrently become a police officer, military personnel or a bouncer to make your training "real?"

If you actually became a true combatant in your definition by becoming a LEO or soldier, you would be trained to fight with the equivalent of combat sports training for the most part. As a matter of fact, the official U.S. army's hand to hand combat is based almost entirely on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (complete with grappling tournament competition).

Tim and Ken, Thank for the reply

Ken, I did not get the point of your message (I must be dense). Tim this is my reply:

I agree that combat sports competion is not "real" (in the sense of life or death) fighting. I also agree that contact sparring (no matter the level of intensity) is not "real" fighting. But both are a lot closer to the feeling of, and are better designed to train the skills necessary for real fighting than pretending to fight with a cooperative "opponent."

Reply: Simulated combat (cooperative) and intensity training (non-cooperative) have their place and both are legitimate methods of training. It is what you do with your training and whom you are resulting from what experience you acquire that is most important. If you take your skill and make the world a better place with it, you are practicing ancient authentic kung fu. If you use your skill to serve yourself, you are training in fighting arts. Hey, fighting arts are cool. Martial arts, in my opinion only, are better rounded than fighting arts: they require communicating command, and acquiring and administrating funds to provide for the troops. Fighting arts are for soldiers, martial arts are for commanders, kung fu is an art of emperors. It is a practice of completeness, pen and sword.

When you practiced Kung Fu, did you concurrently become a police officer, military personnel or a bouncer to make your training "real?"

Reply: Training is training, what do you mean by real (fighting?) I thought you agreed that sparring is not real fighting.

I no longer fight, I renounce brutality and pugilism is degrading to men and humans as a species. (It’s like hunting for sport. If you are going to fight, fight for real. If you are going to hunt, eat what you kill.) If the situation is so, I protect. I do not claim to be a fighter, lets say I can take care of myself and have damaged others more than they have damaged me and have been damaged by others more than I have damaged them.

If you actually became a true combatant in your definition by becoming a LEO or soldier, you would be trained to fight with the equivalent of combat sports training for the most part. As a matter of fact, the official U.S. army's hand to hand combat is based almost entirely on Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (complete with grappling tournament competition).

Reply:Training is the tool. Life is the work. Can you apply your tools to your work? And if you can, what results to you get. “I know I can break a man’s jaw if I have to” was what a previous person wrote; – wonderful, he should be proud. Look, fighting and killing are ugly. People who have never trained know how to kill. You pick up a gun or whatever. Fighting arts help, but there is no guarantee against a stray or not so stray bullet.

Because you asked me personal questions and I did my best to answer, let me ask you a few. Have you ever struck a man with the intention of maiming him, and wondering if you went to far (killing him)? Have you ever felt bone snap or joints pop when the limb was in your hand with the intention of injuring? Have you ever used a sharp weapon and been sprayed and soaked by blood? Have you ever heard a man beg for mercy or whimper semiconsciously in a pool of blood, crying for a loved one? Have you ever woke up in the hospital or walked away from someone knowing that they would be? Is that what you mean by real?

It changes you.

One more question. So what are you going to practice fighting arts until you are 40, 50. 60, 70? And if you do, is it worth it to attain great skills and miss the ultimate attainment (becoming a great human)?

Some people fight in a ring and slap their opponent like a woman after they have mounted them. Is that really cool? In my opinion - hardly. To me it seems childish and vain. Men need to have brotherhood. Living for one-upmanship is why the planet and its inhabitants are on their way out.

C&C

Mon Ha Woo

MHW,

You continue, in your posts, to make it sound like a cut and dried either / or proposition. Either you're a competitive martial artist OR becoming a decent human being - either you're playing around with a sport OR you're a deadly bone-crunching killer.

You've obviously dabbled in a little philosophical Taoism. From you're posts it doesn't sound like you're allowing for the inherent dichotomies and plain old grey areas that make up most of life. I can't quite figure out if you're absolutely against sport competition or if you're just bashing •••••••• with bad attitudes. Don't be such a hard-liner bro.

I maintain that you can have that enlightened mental approach, understanding of the realities of real vs. practiced "combat", and simultaneously develop your skills and achieve that "Ultimate Attainment" well into old age. And If you're not wrapped up in the opinions and politics that often unfortunately accompany martial arts, you just might have a lot of fun in the process.

Whoever has the most fun wins.

- Erik

Erik

Write - on or was that right-on. thank you.

I have never paticipated in this kind of stuff, guess I have new kid on the block syndrome. I am not against sport compition! Do I need to write it a hunded times on the chalk board.

I am not against sport competition
I am not against sport competition
I am not against sport competition
I am not against sport competition

Its all good, just that some of its better.

Your post is well put. I'll take your advice. Again thank you.

MHW

MHW,

You think too much. I simply participate in martial arts and sports competetion because it is fun and a great form of exercise. I think most people do it for the same reason as I do. Other people may play soccer or basketball, I grapple and do kung fu. Hopefully, what I do for fun will help me in a real self defense situation (not involoving guns or bombs).

"Fighting arts are for soldiers, martial arts are for commanders, and kung fu is an art for emporers", what does that mean? Those things are for anybody and everybody that want to participate.

Tim,
Thanks for the breakdown of "itch-scratchers."

There is no such thing as a "perfect martial artist," nor such a thing as a perfect human being. There are many types of martial artists, and some that MHW hints at (psycho death-touch backyard ninjas, and hippy qi huggers) that occupy opposite ends of the spectrum.

But a martial artist, in my opinion, does not inherently crave sadistic victory, nor does he romantically search for some new age cosmic enlightenment. Similarly, he does not crave brotherhood for its own sake, but for the sake of the advancement of the art. And, once in the midst of brothers does not (or should not) claim a blind allegiance to a teacher or a school. Healthy competition between brothers and between schools galvanizes each participant to strive harder. This is the essence of martial arts.

If you are a soldier, it is your professional and patriotic duty to strive towards being a sure and efficient killer. But martial arts is different. Guns, knives, bombs, planes, and hand to hand combat training all help in the furtherance of military ends.

No matter what you study or who your teacher is, YOU, the practicioner, are the inheritor of a legacy (albeit in some cases only the inheritor of a small or incomplete piece of it). And it is your duty, to strive, not for perfection, with its inherent dilemma of contraditions, but to strive for excellence and improvement of the art you study.

Martial arts for health or for convalescence is a different ball of wax. But health has its spectrum, too. There is an extreme of poor health, and there is an extreme of great health. And being a "healthy" martial artist logically pushes the spectrum so that it encourages the competitive martial artists, to find out who is "healthier than the other," by actively testing their respective "healths" by competition.

Health is a mundane thing. Being a winner of competitions is also a mundane thing. They are realistic goals and realistic ends for studying martial arts. But killing, as I mentioned above, is a professional discipline, which is unfortunately still required by society's reliance on the political engine attemping to accomplish mundane goals: those of statesmanship and sovereignty. Yet, it has its relative value, too.

This post turned out a little long, so I give my regards to those who take the time to read it closely.