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Tim and Charles,
You guys might be interested to know that there is only one school from Hsu Hong Ji's tang shou dao system left in Taipei (or in Taiwan for that matter). It's a small school with just six-seven students and it's run by a teacher who foundly remembers his training with Mike Patterson and the other Americans that trained with Hsu. This school has kept up their training and they have done well in recent mixed-martial arts competitions.
I was warmly received by this teacher because of the positive impression you guys had made when you trained here in Taiwan. So thanks for that!

Charles,
Would the rope, bricks and cloth be for a specific neigong training that involves lifting the weight in an unusual manner?


Dave,
Thanks for the post. I'm sorry to hear there are not more teachers in Hsu Laoshi's lineage still teaching.

Tim,

Indeed it would Tim. 120 is also a number specific to that training. I am pleased to learn that you were privy to this special training. Not many of us were. It is an indication of Hsu Laoshi's high opinion of you, not only as a student, but also as an individual.
My congratulations.

Noting Dave's post I'm surprised that Hsu Jen Wang (Ong Eh) is no longer teaching. I think he was 16 or 17 when I left in June of 1973 so he'd be 49 or 50 now.

Tim were you taught shr er ong twei (the combining form of the twelve animals)? It was the last form I learned in Hsu Laoshi's school. Chen Laoshi actually taught it to me just before his falling out with Hsu Laoshi. It was considered sort of a special thing for students. Of course it was also considered rather non-essential. Many of the Taiwanese students who had attained 2nd degree BB level didn't know the form. At that time there were 6 or 7 of them in the class. They had all started training at about the same time and were all friends.

Tim,
Yeah, I'm sorry that there aren't more teachers in the Hsu lineage as well. They really emphasize sparring and I enjoyed working out with the students because several of them were full-contact fighters. Check out these clips of them from a few years ago: http://tsd.ncc.to/G.htm
That is their annual tournament with the other school which is in Japan. So it's an international tournament.

Charles,
I was told that Hsu Jen Wang hasn't practiced for many years, let alone taught anyone. I'm not sure why but maybe Tim knows. Maybe he wanted to spend more time with family.

Black Snake is still alive but apparently unable to actually teach anyone. I was told that he still moves well, especially after he's had a few but that he's dangerous to work with because he hurts people.

Funny you mention shi er hong tui because that was one of the forms that I was specifically looking for when I went to the tang shou dao school. I was told that the teacher knows it but has never taught it to anyone so I doubted that I would be the first to pick it up.

Was shi er hong tui taught after za shi tui? Was it the highest level form taught in Hsu's xingyi?

Thanks for the opportunity to talk about this stuff.

Charles,

I learned the form after I had learned all the animal forms.

Ong Eh stopped teaching years ago, primarily I think because he got married and had kids.

Dave,

Like Tim I learned this after all of the twelve animal forms separately. Of course ying/shyung hsing is the two animals combined. It was the last Hsing I form I learned in the school. I was taught a total of 32 forms in the school. Additionally some of Hsu Laoshi's friends who were from other styles also taught me some of their forms. Most of these were from other than internal styles. Hsu Laoshi had many friends within the MA world in Taiwan.

Yes, Black Snake was a mean one. He was Hsu Laoshi's younger school brother from Hung I Hsiang's school. Aside from being a martial artist he made his living as a pharmacist, as I remember. He served as Hsu Laoshi's assistant instructer for a time. He really didn't care for me at all. Whenever he called me up to demonstrate a technique he usually nailed me pretty hard. It was almost as if he was having a competition with me. I never really discerned why. Once while sparring we really got a little carried away and Hsu Laoshi separated us. And yes, he was a heavy drinker. He seems to have been a bit of a troublemaker throughout his years in the MA. Hsu Laoshi told me a number of stories regarding things Black Snake had done at Hung I Hsiang's school. It's a wonder he wasn't killed.

It's unfortunate that Ong Eh stopped teaching. As Hsu Laoshi's son I thought he would make it a career.

Charlie

Charles,
Thanks for the info. I love hearing the stories from the old days here in Taiwan. I wonder if you'd even recognize some parts of the city now. There have been some pretty big improvements in some areas.

take care,
Dave C.

charlie,
the rope,brick and cloth thing,"lifting weight in a unusual manner" like tim said.
it sound like that nei gong where they hang
weights from their "parts".right?
how in the world could this help with anything?

jerky,HO! i meant jerry,i just read your sweet post at the top of the page.by the way i'm a rowdy drunk,so what's your point?
why are you under the impression that people enjoy reading your posts?

Tim, can you help me understand this Whole Body Power you refer to in your article?

I see how alignment allows you to resist gravity. And having alignment when you are pushed would seem to give you a better chance of not falling down. Although I don't understand how a horizontal push to your chest can be dealt with in the same way the body aligns against gravity. Gravity always pushes down. My body is specifically designed to stand and withstand its downward pressure. My body isn't designed to handle a horizontal push, none of my posture is equipped to deal with that absent a change in stance to something like a mountain climbing stance. But I've never been pushed where I had time to get into a mountain climbing stance and prepare for the push. I've always been standing up straight, feet parallel etc. And what if I'm ooriented so I'm completely horizontal (in a pushup position for example), don't I have to use my "fast twitch bodybuilder" muscle to stay in this position? Eventually my muscles get tired and I have to go down. Does using Whole Body Power necessitate the ability to reposition at angles where this postural alignment is functional? but for me this still doesn't explain how the IMA would help me if I'm pushed when my feet our parallel and I'm standing up straight with perfect alignment.

Also, I totally don't understand Whole Body Power when striking. Does striking with Whole Body Power necessitate stepping forward, actually propelling the body as a whole forward like taking a step? When a boxer throws a punch that lifts the back heel, is this Whole Body Power? What if the fighter is on a slippery surface and lifting the back heel would mean falling down? Can he still strike with Whole Body Power while keeping both feet firmly planted? This would seem to necessitate using what your article referred to as Sectional Power (using the waist to jerk the arms). The classics seem to say, push off the ground and allows the energy to go through your waist and out your hands. But I got the impression (maybe I am wrong) that you equated that more with sectional power than Whole Body Power.

Finally, you said external martial artists condition a specific area of the body, like the fist. If I'm going to hit something, doesn't it mandate that I condition it? If I'm going to run a marathon, don't I want to run as long as possible to prepare for it? If IMA guys do not condition their fists for example, how do they punch things without getting injured? Does using Whole Body Power somehow compensate for this?

Whole body power is more like pushing a car (when its in neutral, hopefully)though different systems have different ways of getting "whole body power" Perhaps Tim could also shed somelight on that facet, that is, non-equivalent ways of using WBP.

what?

fred,

whpole body power will lessen the impact of a blow by spreading the impact over a larger area.

i.e. if you hit the heavy bag wrong, your wrist will fold, all of the impact energy is in the wrist, now the wrist hurts, ooo caveman sorry...

if you punch it correctly, with proper skeletal and muscular alignment, the impact force will travel up the arm, into the body, and down to the ground in a harmonious wave, do i sound smart yet? didnt think so...

if you are standing on a slippery surface, balance and alignment will probably be the only thing that will save your ass from slipping and falling, think about it...

as for the horizontal push, (poster chuckles to himself)there are more than one stance when concerning stances which you can apply balance, structure and alignment for martial use, in this case, the simplist stance i could tell you to use against a horizontal push is a front bow stance. which is usually applied when the opponent is in front of you, as opposed to horse stance, which is usually used at an angle or slightly twisted.

whole body pwer is a skill that is learned through practice, and whole body power used in fighting is usually of the explosive nature, although you can manifest pressure in many different ways.

only when you understand alignment structure,and balance, will you be able to consider coordinating full body power into your attacks, you have to have a certain degree of body awareness and an understanding of how your body creates force.

not to mention a good techer like tim who can guide you through the process PROFESSIONALLY!

okay i'll stop with my incoherent babble. peace love and happines to you all;)

Fred asks:

"Does using Whole Body Power necessitate the ability to reposition at angles where this postural alignment is functional?"

Yes.

"Does striking with Whole Body Power necessitate stepping forward, actually propelling the body as a whole forward like taking a step?"

Not always, although when stepping the power generated is usually greater.

"When a boxer throws a punch that lifts the back heel, is this Whole Body Power?"

When thrown correctly, it usually is.

"What if the fighter is on a slippery surface and lifting the back heel would mean falling down?"

Then he'd have to keep his heel down.

"If IMA guys do not condition their fists for example, how do they punch things without getting injured?"

By not hitting anything harder than their fists.

There is always a degree of conditioning, but it should stop short of structural damage done to achieve a short term goal.

exactly.

This article explains this myth under the light of historical research.

Cheers

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/china_review_international/v006/6.2henning.pdf

These articles explain this myth under the light of historical research.

Cheers

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/china_review_international/v006/6.2henning.pdf

http://seinenkai.com/articles/henning/politicallycorrect.pdf

http://seinenkai.com/articles/henning/index.html