• Archive through January 20, 2001 January 20 - 08:22 am [20]

Given the interest of Meynard, "Curious George" and others in how "wu de" is defined, I thought I'd resurrect this older thread on the same topic. Dan above posted a very informative discussion of martial virtue. Joey a.k.a. BBB responded as he often does. The contrast is wonderfully illustrative of the presence and absence of wu de.

Sun Lutang said: "You should do the most hard work with calmness of mind, instead of showing off or boasting of your skills. The virtue of martial art should always be the first in your mind, keeping yourself respectful, modest, and with no quarrels with others. Self-control is the basic training for the boxing exercises."

Towards the beginning of this thread, Tim said he had no idea what the "old masters" thought about wu de. Sun is one such "old master," and what he thought about martial virtue is clear to me. Tim instructs about Sun's baguazhang and taijiquan, but not Sun's teachings on character or martial virtue.

If you want instruction on morality, go see a philosopher or a priest, right? Tim trains his students for fighting. He doesn't teach the larger context of those fighting skills.

Tim doesn't enter into the fray about wu de because he doesn't care, he wants to let his students speak their own minds, or maybe he's afraid he'll lose his students if he publicly cautions them. I don't know, and frankly I don't care. The character of some of Tim's students and his tolerance for their harrassing vitriole on this board speaks clearly enough for me.

Meynard, in the flame room thread I didn't lump all of Tim's students together. You guys obviously aren't all the same. But you were quick to think so. I apologize if you felt included.

That's all I have to say on this topic.

Thanks, Forest (as in; Gump)

For the record, Tim exudes martial virtue and is a fine example of a good human being. He 'tolerates harassing vitriol' because he isn't shallow enough to feel affected by what's typed in a free public internet forum regardless of who types it. You'd have to spend 2&1/2 minutes with him to confirm this. ('harassing vitriol' is redundant and was misspelled).

As for "Tim not teaching the larger context of those fighting skills" -- watch the last half of any class to grasp the absurdity of that one.

Opinions are like a*holes, everybody's got one and most of'em stink. Waving yours around on this board speaks volumes to me, pokey.

Hey Tom,
Does your definition of martial virtue include any concept of not judging and labeling people you have never met and know very little about? Or are you a true psychic? (If you are, the Amazing Randy has a million dollars waiting for you).

And by the way, how many of Sun Lu Tang's students have you talked to? Do you think you have any idea what he was really like based on what you read?

Loa Tie Qiu,

I was quick to think that you want to lump as all together. That has been your obvious purpose from the very beginning. Why do you have so much malice towards us? Why are you obsessively posting here?

So I guess reading some translation of Sun Lu Tang's books gave you a complete insight on the man. That's very arrogant and presumptuous of you. If you lived in China, spoke Chinese fluently, can translate classical text, and trained with Sun's students you might develop some form of credibility. You have no credibility lecturing on Wu De. The truth is you have no clue of what martial virtue is.

Please don't lecture on virtues when you can't even show courage by posting with your real name. Hiding behind the computer makes it too easy for cowards like you to voice opinions.

>Please don't lecture on virtues when you can't
>even show courage by posting with your real
>name. Hiding behind the computer makes it too
>easy for cowards like you to voice opinions.

Come on, everybody knows who he is. Are Macaco fino, BBB, Bob#2 etc also cowards? This would make most of Tim's students here cowards. I mean there is a difference in using a screen name, where nobody knows who is hiding behind the name and the screen name where it is obvious who is behind it.

FunJohn is a screen name, but he posted also his real name. Macao fino is not his real name but his nick name, but it is known who he is. It is also known who Lao Tie Qiu is. So where is the problem? It is not known -- at least not to me -- who BBB is, so that makes him a coward, not Tom.

Volker

Bob #2 is not, never was, never will be a coward.
I do not like cows and will NEVER stoop so low. I wont interfere with what a man and a consinting cow undertake, but please do not lump the name Bob #2 in with cowards, that's just wrong.

Roberto Numero Dos
4932 Cleland Ave
Los Angeles, CA 90065
(323) 225-2127

Actually, you can't stoop to low with cows. Ya gotta stand on somethin' to get at 'em. Pigs are the perfect height, but if you even so much as give em' that-thar "special little look", they'll squeal on you!

Oh, baby - BARNYARD FUN!!!

Bob#2;
Thanks for the address. I'll be over at 6:00 sharp for dinner and we can discuss Wu De. I like spaghetti with meatballs.

If you get past the moat you can gorge on my meatballs.

Tim wrote:

>Does your definition of martial virtue include any concept of not judging and labeling people you have never met and know very little about?<

Are you sure we haven't met?

Any judgment and labeling was simply reflecting on your previous statement in this thread on wu de ("As to what it really meant to the old masters, I can't say.". I thought the words attributed to Sun Lutang were fairly clear; one of your teachers, Sun Jian Yun, quoted (more probably paraphrased) her father in a recent interview. Wu de and character were important to him. He is on record as emphasizing virtuous character in his teaching.

I haven't seen much emphasis on wu de in your published materials or your teaching. That's not a problem for me. It's certainly not what I look to you for. You teach fighting skills and conditioning. Your regular students obviously respect and admire your skills and your personal example. That's great.

Tomorrow I'm headed down to Bowery St. in Manhattan to check out a similar no-nonsense bagua teacher who comes well-recommended. Another teacher, a xingyi student of the late Kenny Gong's, also comes well-recommended. The New York City area has a number of respected teachers who focus on developing the fighting skills of their students, fortunate for someone like me looking for decent instruction in a new town.

The morality shows through in the students' hard work and perseverance. A good teacher doesn't have to give lectures on virtuous character.

By the way, Bao Wu De in the other thread wasn't me. I liked the discussion he sparked, though.

I also like my name (thanks to whoever on emptyflower's board)so I'm gonna keep using it.

"Tom, you're still a dick."

You guys crack me up.

Bao Wu De is from Taiwan and he said so. What's the point? Read the posts before you make stupid comments.

"Martial Virtue" - notice how its NOT personal, spiritual or moral virtue? In a time when many martial artists were thugs and bullies "Wu De" was one of the things that separated Sun Lutang and others from the rest. To me it means (as stated before) using your skills to protect yourself or others when and if necessary, learning your art thoroughly - it's strenths & weaknesses, history, etc. - and gaining solid practical fighting skills and better health.

For those of you who obviously have never met or trained with Tim or his students and rant on about their character or Tim controlling his students please consider this. It doesn't take long to see that personally he's a spot-on guy. Intelligent, inspiring and approachable with a pretty funny sense of humor (as, I'm sure, many of your teachers are). All in all a good character but having said that, would I want Tim trying to push his moral and personal values on me during classtime? Hell no! I studied under him because of his phenomenal (and in my opinion - unmatched) fighting and teaching abilities, and not some fortune cookie philosophy lecture on personal morals and values during class.

A martial artist who doesn't bully people and competes with other skilled martial artists in a genuine contest of ability, to me, are practicing Wu De. As far as moratlity... I thoroughly enjoy being an a**hole and a bit immoral at times. But that has nothing to do with Wu De does it. If I want spiritual, moral or religious guidance I will go to someone who specializes in these (monk, priest, rabbi, guru or whatever) and not my fighting art teacher.

And what's wrong with voicing the opinion or feeling that your teacher is the best for the kind of instruction you are looking for. Quite obviously Tim's students are looking for solid fighting ability and Tim's "no-bullshit straight-to-the-point" (or was it straight to the mat?) approach is exactly what they are looking for. And it works. Those guys can fight. I like reading everyones posts. Even those pissy whiney ones that think everyone should be all sweet and nice to each other. It can be entertaining or thought provoking but get real. Humans have different characters so live with it. As for me, outspoken, controversial and even confrontational characters bring out the discussion in us all and are a hell of a lot more interesting (especially when their views are based on actual experience) than some politically correct hypocrite watching what they say all the time.

Oh, and give me one good reason why a student can't surpass his teacher? Cheers to Joe for his response to that. Couldn't agree more.

Good Training

EXCELLENT definition of Wu De, Erik:

>>>"Martial Virtue" - notice how its NOT personal, spiritual or moral virtue? In a time when many martial artists were thugs and bullies "Wu De" was one of the things that separated Sun Lutang and others from the rest. To me it means (as stated before) using your skills to protect yourself or others when and if necessary, learning your art thoroughly - it's strenths & weaknesses, history, etc. - and gaining solid practical fighting skills and better health.<<<

That about covers it.

More from Mr. LaPort:

>>>And what's wrong with voicing the opinion or feeling that your teacher is the best for the kind of instruction you are looking for.<<<

Not a damned thing. Joe's right on about that. With Tim, he doesn't stop looking for the kind of instruction he wants, either. Check out (if you haven't already) the old "Wu Gong" interview he did (at the "Biography" page here). Tim said:

"I think the important point is that no single martial art is adequate to prepare the practitioner for the full range of situations that may potentially occur in a real fight. Individuals will naturally gravitate toward those arts which best suit their individual physicality and personality, but it is vital to become well rounded enough to have constructive responses to any situation which may arise. Almost without exception, all of the famous masters of old (those that were famous for actually fighting) trained in several different systems. Cross training was and is the only way to truly prepare for real fighting. Remember that all styles of martial arts were founded by men who had cross-trained, and then christened their synthesis as a new style."

The point being, we need different things at different points in our skill development. One teacher may not have it all. But when you find one you click with who's teaching you the real stuff . . . nothing wrong with being proud of that teacher.

Finally:

>>>Oh, and give me one good reason why a student can't surpass his teacher? Cheers to Joe for his response to that. Couldn't agree more.<<<

I think a really good teacher would work hard to make sure dedicated students make the most of their talent and training---even to the point of exceeding the teacher in his/her skill level and/or teaching ability. Luo De Xiu's reputation as a good teacher is based on his openness and encouragement (as well as his skill). No reason he wouldn't be proud of Tim's accomplishments--in baguazhang, or in BJJ (which Luo doesn't train in or teach), or in teaching skills and principles fundamental to all the arts (Shen Wu).

Tom;
If you sign up for a User Account you may edit your own post within 30 minutes of posting.

Wu De has generally been characterised as a mode for correct behaviour, where correct is usually defined as some sort of moral high ground from which its proponents look down upon and separate themselves from the morally degenerate behaviour of others. The individual either agrees with or rejects to behave in this way.

The form of Wu De as practised in classical Taoism however, is a form of self-reflection, where the individual judges only their own conduct, not others, and seeks to address their own faults not pass judgement on others. There is no high ground, the ground obviously changes with the terrain. What is appropriate for one person to another and from one situation to another is not necessarily the same.

Wu De practiced in this manner has practical value both for those martial artists who emphasise the fighting aspects of their arts as well as those who emphasise the mind training/enlightening aspects. Once the fighter has disciplined the body and mastered the physical rudiments further progress can be enhanced by attention to Wu De. Inappropriate emotions, thoughts, behaviour etc, can be a barrier to progress and it is up to the individual to address what is the appropriate solution, rather than stick to societal norms. Problems arise when someone dogmatically defines what is correct.

Evidence of the importance of Wu De can be seen in nearly all the major 'warrior' arts of the world which have 'character developement' in various guises as part of training. Whether you see it as spiritual, pyschological training or even cross training, Wu De can be an asset.

Here is one of those guys:

"Sensei," I once asked my Teacher, "What does 'NINJA' mean?"

"It means human," he replied.

" Human?" I asked. " I thought it meant 'silent one' or something like that."

"The literal translation may be something like that, but being Ninja means to be a Human Being.

"And, what does that mean?" I continued.

He leaned very close and whispered to me, "It means when you have the enemy at your mercy, you don't kill him. There are lots of people, but only a few human beings. You must seek them out and cultivate them, for certainly you will need them in this life or the next."



"Is that what you meant when you told me that an enemy was merely a reflection of my Self and that if I hurt him I only hurt myself?"

"Yes," he replied.

"Then how can I know who the enemy is?"

"Because he kills without mercy or cause. A Hunter kills to eat, to survive. It is the great paradox of the universe that life feeds on life. The Hunter has a covenant with the Prey, he knows that as the animal sacrifices his life so that the Hunter may live, one day the Hunter will die and return to the Earth and nourish the soil and become grass that will grow and be eaten by other animals so that they, in their turn, may survive. The true Hunter does not slaughter the herd. He selects a few and manages the population. This is called Husbandry. Too many deer and they all starve or become diseased. The Enemy kills for power, for pleasure, for material gain that is useless on any other level of existence. This is the Lesson of the Temporal Plane. The Ninja, a Human in the act of Being on this temporal plane, knows this. So he never fights unless he means to kill. Then he brings the enemy back to life. So that he may continue his journey of self-discovery, having learned the Lesson of Humility."

"Should I then, armed with this power to kill and restore life, to penetrate anywhere unseen, and knowledge of Self, seek to enlighten those who would impose their will on others through force?"

"By using the Force against them?" He asked me.

"Yes."

"No." He said flatly.

"As a Ninja, you cannot use the Force to change to world to make it as YOU think it should be. Good and evil exist as naturally counter-balancing forces, they are merely two sides of the same coin, tampering with them upsets the balance of the Universe. Do not seek out evil, it is all around you and will confront you often. It is a measure of your character how you respond to it. Ninja seek only to be of service to others, to cultivate their inner nature. They are protected by the Armor of Righteousness. But, they never 'test' it, or themselves. Life is the test."



"How then," I asked, "Should I act as a Human Being?"

"Be kind. The Mood of the Warrior is waiting. Waiting for the Enemy to appear. For that is what moves his Will, and provides the opportunity to set a good example for all."

"But, how will I know if I can win?"

"The Ultimate Principle of Combat is the yield to the superior force and overcome it by its own momentum. He who strikes first sets in motion the pattern of his own destruction. Thus the Ninja uses invisibility to demonstrate the Principles of Self Defense. Never take a hit you don't have to, never strike until there is an opening, when there is an opening, strike decisively and win with one punch. This is the Way of the Masters. It requires intelligence, understanding the enemy, and your Self. Winning and losing are not important. The Ninja prevails."

"Thus, the Force can only be used to establish, maintain, or restore good order. You cannot feel it, you cannot 'test' it, but when needed, it will, manifest through you because you live in harmony with it. It is developed through the cultivation of Qi, the electromagnetic Force that flows through and around and within all things. You are part of it and it you, as are ordinary People. That is why every religion throughout the history of Man has taught the Golden Rule. Those that do not teach it are not true religions. The Enemy does not know it, yet he acts upon it without fail. Seeking to harm others demonstrates that what he wants is for someone to harm him. Just as a child seeks direction with experimental attention seeking behavior, the adult seeks attention for his self doubt and lack of confidence by seeking to use force to impose his Will. Since this cannot be done, he creates the openings, mental and physical, that permit the Ninja to prevail against him. That is the Nature of things. Thus, the Human enjoys his life, even the battles, and has no fear of failure, for he knows that all things are temporal and that what will happen in one's life is already written in the pattern of the Universe. But, he must choose to be there. Thus, Free Will and Fate act hand in hand."

"So, Sensei," I asked. "If I choose a path that takes me into harm's way, it is permissible to kill the enemy?"

"No. The Enemy kills himself, that is a choice he makes. The Ninja brings him back to a better life, or sets such an example that the Enemy realizes his own imbalance and discovers it for himself and does no harm. No man is the master of another, unless the other allows it. But, all should act for the common good, that is the nature of civilization."

"So, if I choose to be a soldier and go to war, I may encounter men of the other side who have also chosen that Path and if we fight, one of us may die. But, that is our choice?"

"Yes."



"What then are the causes that we are justified in fighting for?"

"There is no justification for the taking of a human life."

"What about executing a killer for his crimes?"

"The murderer justifies his actions by pointing to a litany of injustices committed against him. He feels that he is alone and powerless and that everyone is his enemy. This is not so. He makes himself the enemy of the tribe by his inappropriate response to the injustices he has endured. Life is not easy, those it cannot break it kills. Nor should one forgive crimes committed against him and continue to be victimized. If possible, he should learn from them and avoid them in the future. Nor should he be tricked into sacrificing his life for a cause or forced to fight for a prince who never risks his own life. He must be intelligent enough to know that the cause is just from his own experience. He must act to secure the common welfare of all. If he is attacked, he is justified in defending himself. The Ninja, however, knowing that he can and will prevail, uses no more Force than is needed. Executing a murderer is not justified, but it is sometimes necessary for the public good. Even a pack of wolves will drive off a mad dog. If he cannot be driven away, and find his death elsewhere, then they will kill it. The rat does not steal, the cat does not murder. Each acts according to his nature. So too, it is with Man."



"War is merely the reflection of the chaos associated with Change. The temperature of boiling water and steam are both 100 degrees Centigrade. But, there is a difference of only a few Calories of heat that mark the threshold between them. So too, is life and death and the cycle of the Universe. Things come and go. Yin and Yang strive for Balance. When you encounter the forces of Evil, do your worst. The only thing good about a war is its ending. The sooner the better. That is why it is important to win with one punch, to strike decisively and effectively against the source of the conflict, rather than its tentacles."

"This is where the power of Invisibility comes in?" I interrogated further.

"Yes, one Human in the right place at the right time can affect the course of history, but only within the confines of the Tapestry or Life, the Web of the Universe. Not by trying to change the world single-handed, simply by tipping the balance, by making ripples upon the pond, if he but chooses to be there. This is the power of invisible action, that it is so subtle in goes unnoticed, but its effect is profound. It is said that if a man went back in time and killed a single butterfly, the entire history of the world would be different. So too, it is with every act. Ninja know this. Thus they strive to move in harmony with Nature. The wind may come from behind and assist you in your journey, it may come from the side and try to unbalance you, and it may come from the front so that you must fight it. But it does not change the Path. Nor the intent of the Seeker."



"Being able to blend in and move without notice is part of invisibility then?"

"Yes, in whatever land you may travel observe the customs and laws of the people there that you may come to know them and learn from them, and they about you. But, remember always that you are Human. That you will commit no act that will harm another person, nor by inaction will you allow harm to come to another."

"Doesn't that contradict the act of striking the enemy?"

"There are five ways to deal with violence. Being Human doesn't mean you will never be called upon to fight, nor that you shouldn't or can't enjoy fighting. What you must not enjoy is hurting people. A Warrior is sometimes forced to kill an evil person in order to protect the innocent. He is not expected to enjoy it. He does it because it must be done. One cannot save all the stray dogs in the world, but if you save one you have accomplished much. And when the war is over, he returns to his life. A true Warrior has few opportunities to demonstrate his skill. A Hunter must hunt every day. A Farmer's work is never done."

"If a man hits you with a stick, you can endure and suffer a beating; you can run away; you can fight back and injure him; you can take the stick away from him; or you can set such an example of kindness and compassion that he is powerless to attack you before he even thinks of it. How many fights have been stopped by the appearance of a priest of any religion or a warrior with his sword in his belt who speaks a calming or commanding word? Who would strike such a man? It is not a matter of any theology, doctrine, swearing an oath, or adhering to any specific code of conduct. It is a matter of demeanor and quiet confidence and knowing what is right. This is inherent in all people, but not all become Human Beings."



"Why?"

"Because they have lost the relaxation of play. They have been taught and trained and conditioned to work, to suppress their creativity, to lose the joy of life and simply exist and follow blindly the whims of self-elected princes. Some are benevolent and wise and rule kingdoms of peace and prosperity. Others are sinister and cruel and rule by fear. Neither is worthwhile. Freedom is the key. Freedom to choose, even if it is the wrong choice. If you never make a mistake, you aren't doing enough. If you don't learn from them, you must try harder. The spark of greatness lives in everyone, but it is not kindled into the fire of the Will by demeaning rules and regulations. Rather by encouragement and guidance is it cultivated and allowed to flourish. Human Beings know this, thus they have the power of joyous play. Everything is fun for them, even a battle for life and death. They see work that must be done as a religious experience. To be absorbed in minute detail and pressed into the Memory like the pages of a diary. To them the boring and routine is a meditation. Every sunrise is a rebirth and every sunset a tapestry. They see the world as a child, amazed and entertained by all that occurs and is experienced. Every child is a wonder and a joy to behold, until they are turned into adults by being told what they must and may not do. If they are unfortunate, at some point they are told they must grow up and never be a child again. Usually by others who had this inflicted upon themselves previously and believed it, and can no longer relax through play themselves. But, like all things, that injunction is not absolute or permanent. Nor does a Human require permission to permit himself to play and enjoy life from time to time. When you were a child, you ran like a child, simply for the joy of doing it, and it felt good. That is the true magic, Imagination. You didn't worry about how far you went, how fast your heart was beating, what you were wearing. That takes all the fun out of it. Growing up doesn't mean you can never be child again. It just means that you must now balance that with responsibility and duty."

"Thus, if you want to make yourself feel good like that again, run as you did when you were a child. When you face the Enemy see it as an opportunity to shine, to prevail. No matter how much you practice, you can never be ready enough, practicing is just fun and healthy. When you face the Enemy you cannot anticipate his attack, you cannot know if his intent is to kill or simply unbalance you, you cannot control him at all. The only thing you can control, if you are skilled, is your Self. When he moves yield and let him be overcome by his own aggression. That is the lesson he is seeking. That is why he attacked you, however he may have come to choose to be in that place at that time, or you. Help him up and let him try again. Do this as long as it takes for him to realize the futility of it and seek another solution, even to exhaustion. In that way he learns what you already know, that all life is precious, nor can any be replaced."



"This is the Great Game of Life."

"So, if I choose not to go to the battlefield, what should I do?"

"Be ready. If the opportunity to tip the balance presents itself to you, decide then whether to intervene, knowing that you cannot fail because you are in harmony with the Universe, and choose which of the five courses you will employ at that time. You can only do what you did at any given moment, you cannot anticipate every moment to come, you must live spontaneously. If you do unto others as you would have done unto yourself and know that others, aware of it or not, are demonstrating how they wish to be treated by their actions as well, peace and harmony will prevail through courtesy. If you make, first do no harm, your Law, you will never strike the first blow and will be known as a man of peace who can fight like ten tigers, a Human in the act of Being. There is no greater rank than this."

I remain,
Ashida Kim


Second part:

Regarding training, I cite the old Shaolin Masters, "Development of the mind can be achieved only when the body has been disciplined. To accomplish this, the ancients have taught us to imitate the ways of Nature." Therefore, physical practice is PART of the overall training. I like to start with meditation before I work out, but that is just my personal preference. You subliminaly accumulate the philosophical points BY DOING THE KATA AND EXERCISES. Kata Dante, for example, will make you into a lean, mean fighting machine. If that is what you want. Tai Chi will make you a master of good health and longevity, capable of defending himself against serpent's fang and tiger's claw, if you prefer that. It HAS to be YOUR choice because I refuse to boss people around. There is far too much of that already, Ha!, Ashida Kim

Ahhh... the great Ashida Kim.

Something to ponder regarding martial virtue (?):

"Winning and losing are not important. The Ninja prevails." -- Ashida Kim

vs.

"The skill of the ninja is the art of winning." -- Toshitsugu Takamatsu [last known ninja & 33rd Grandmaster of Togakure Ryu (ninjutsu) -- from his essay on the essence of ninjutsu]