I've been doing shuai jiao for under a year. The guys I train with are bigger than me, more agressive than me, more skilled than me, and massively stronger than me.

I love wrestling but sometimes get discouraged from all the disadvantages in front of me. Yesterday we were sparring and I felt like I couldn't move these guys at all.

This is one of those situations where I have to grind it out and put my time in by: making myself physically stronger, working on throwing skills, and hoping they all age out of the class so I don't look as bad.

Anyone have any suggestions on throwing aggressive gorillas? Diet, qi gong, whatever is helpful. Thanks.

Currently I do kettle bell swings and Turkish getups. Eventually I'll do cleans, presses.

If they are bigger and stronger, work on your technique, sensitivity, endurance and speed.

Endurance definitely. Strength definitely. Sensitivity? If you mean that when I try to throw, it misses, and I throw him by taking advantage of his new position...then yes. Sensitivity by experience will take time and patience.
Has anyone been successful competing In open weight wrestling matches in which you were the smaller person and won?

I was watching some of the pankration matches and it seems like they don't take advantage of wrestling. One person falls on his back and the other guy stays on top of him. Maybe there'd be more wrestling(takedowns) if ground grappling wasn't allowed?

"Has anyone been successful competing In open weight wrestling matches in which you were the smaller person and won? "

I have.

You might be interested in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16YHC1qM0S8&feature=player_embedded

What were the rules of the competition you did well in? I don't mean the exact rules but was of purely takedowns or was bjj in it too?

That sumo clip was good but I think in the minority. Check out this clip. The people who made the video seemed stronger than there opponents which is a big factor in them doing so well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZouSsrTGNE

I've won San Shou matches against larger opponents, also Submissions Wrestling; takedowns and ground grappllng.

Of course the Sumo clip is in the minority. It's just an example that it is possible for a much smaller fighter to defeat a much larger fighter.

The vast majority of times, the bigger, stronger fighter will win.

As a "larger" wrestler, myself, I most fear wrestlers with speed, technique and superior condition. I love going against bigger wrestlers, for I usually have a speed, endurance and technical advantage.

Just keep practicing you'll get it.

Wrestling is a good combat sport, but not a martial art. Martial arts are weapons based. If one tries to wrestle on the street this can happen (the guy was apparently stabbed in the head while attempting to take the guy down).

http://www.edmontonsun.com/news/alberta/2009/07/11/10097771-sun.html

Same goes for other combat sports.

http://www.usmta.com/ALEX%20GONG.htm

William,

Your logic goes something like this: Since a Thai boxer is killed with a gun, combat sports are not useful in the real world.

If Alex Gong had been trained in a "traditional" martial art, do you think he would have been bulletproof?

Incidentally, wrestling is the world's oldest martial art.

Tim,

My point is that combat sports and many of today's martial arts as they are practized today do not prepare for the realities of the street. Hence the examples. I trained a lot of styles in the past and none of the combat sports ever touched on things like dealing with someone who is armed. This is something many schools hardly look at. I dont think wrestlers are taught how to avoid getting stabbed when going for a take down.

Awareness of the limitations of any style when applied in he street and adjusting one's training accordingly could help, avoiding the situations illustrated(but you know this already). That does not make anyone bullet proof, though. As for wrestling, from the top of my head and only looking at the Chinese example, was a military sport as instituted by the Qin emperor. While shoubo was more intune with military type of martial art. Henning has a good piece on this topic.

Cheers

I can see both sides of this argument. How could anyone prepare for a weapon that you don't know exists? I don't think anyone is prepared for a weapons assault unless they are trained with weapons specifically(police officers, military personel) and are carrying weapons on them at the time of the assault.

Assaults don't happen that often. I'm not sure if any kind of training can prepare you for such an assault. Some people are tougher than others.

My friend had a knife pulled on him and he was weaponless. He started yelling really loud using the "make yourself look bigger and make loud noises to scare the bear away" approach. He has never had any martial arts training and is just crazy when he needs to be.

Train what you love and expect nothing to happen to you because it probably won't.

The biggest difference I see between so called traditional training and sport martial training is this: In traditional training you spend a lot of time waiting for an attack and then react. There's a lot of hanging back and once techniques are executed they are done lightly with minimal engagement. It's a lot of mental exercise. In sport training there is plenty of engagement when sparring is going on especially in wrestling.

Maybe that guy would not have been stabbed in the head if he didn't go for a takedown. Maybe the perp would have lunged at him if he were hanging back.

In the book, "Philosophy of Martial Arts"(I think) there are two chapters about wrestling.

1. Why wrestling is not a martial art
2. Why wrestling is still not a martial art

It was a collection of blackbelt magazine articles written by one author and put into a book. I think it's a great book.

Anyway, he argues that wrestling isn't a martial art because it lacks the philosophical backgrounds of the traditional martial arts. I agree that wrestling itself is a skill and not necessarily an art BUT judo and shuia jiao have philosophical backgrounds like any other traditional art. Kano wrote that judo's purpose was to improve mind and body and not necessarily to beat people up.


I would also argue that many so called martial arts are more art than martial. I'm bored at work. Someone debate with me!

I've improevd my body mechanics and it made some of the throws easier. I guess it does come down to practice like you said, Robert.

I was able to pull of lower body cracking rather easily. Basically you're supposed to pull down on the arm/jacket and push the leg at the knee while pulling down. I could never understand the push the leg part and the person just kept stepping with my pull. So the other day I was finally able to connect my pushing arm to my back and it worked well.

"lack philosophical background" ?

thats probably why its not mentioned in Greek philosophy, the Bible, Koran, Torah, all of Mongolia, the myriad of indigenous cultural traditions in which wrestling was almost ESSENTIAL for the rite of passage for a boy to become man.

oh wait a minute...

"I swear it upon Zeus an outstanding runner cannot be the equal of an average wrestler." -Socrates

I quoted wrong. He said it lacks moral teaching.

"Anyway, he argues that wrestling isn't a martial art because it lacks the philosophical backgrounds of the traditional martial arts. I agree that wrestling itself is a skill and not necessarily an art BUT judo and shuia jiao have philosophical backgrounds like any other traditional art. Kano wrote that judo's purpose was to improve mind and body and not necessarily to beat people up. "

Timothy,
From the Webster Dictionary
Art: skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the>
2
a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : LIBERAL ARTS b archaic : LEARNING, SCHOLARSHIP

Hence, wrestling IS an art.

IMHO, the way we see martial arts as something that must included at least some type of spiritual goal to be considered a martial art is not quite so. I can only talk about Chinese martial arts. For instance military dances had both practical and religious goals. However to say that the religious overtones were more important, that would be stretching it too much. The job of a soldier is to fight not becoming a monk or a spiritual guru. Martial arts are for fighting, plain and simple, in a situation where there are no rules. One can include other religious, philosophical and healing elements in their practice but to me they are not essential.

Empty hand martial arts became the trend by the end of the Ming dynasty onwards (see Meir Shahar, The Shaolin Monastery and our interview to Ma Mingda on IKM). Qi Jiguang's Manual of Effective Discipline, Chapter on Essentials sums it up quite nicely, when describing how empty hand martial arts were seeing at that time (see Douglas Wyle's Taichi Ancestors).

"The techniques of bare-handed combat would seem to have little relevance to the science of mass warfare. However, from the point of view of exercising the limbs and training the body, this is the best introduction"

Today we don’t fight with swords and spears; guns are, at least in Canada, regulated so the likelihood of facing someone with a gun is low. Knives are a different story. Does this mean that I should stop worrying about weapons when facing someone in the street? I don’t think so, even if the chances are small, you always have to assume the other person is armed, trained and not alone. It is better to prepared for the worst, than to be overconfident.

I don’t despise combat sports or competition; they are great, teach you discipline, how to apply your skills as real as possible. The issue is that most of the people (Tim is one of the few exceptions), focus only on competition, where there are rules, judges, a nice even competition surface, weight classes etc. If one includes some scenario training, analysis of techniques that should not be used in the street, and weapons defense then people (who do combat sports) could apply more effectively their skills in a self defence situation. That is way I said that wrestling is not a martial art.

Wrestling is not a martial art cause it just too hard

William,

You might be interested in the work of Matt Larson (the "Father of Modern Army Combatves") and Army Special Forces officer Greg Thompson (the latter has published a book on U.S. Army combatives: "Hand to Hand Combat").

The US Army Combatives system is based on Gracie Jiu Jitsu. Here's a quote by Matt Larson from the Foreward: "When fighting in Afghanistan, we began to conduct post action interviews with Soldiers who had experienced hand-to-hand combat. For instance, every hand-to-hand fight we have documented has involved grappling, but not a single one has involved only striking."

Real soldiers in real world life and death struggles with other soldiers. Doesn't get more "martial" than that.

For the real world, it is necessary to go beyond training for sports competition and take into consideration variables like the environment and weapons, but the fundamental techniques that apply in sport competition still apply in life or death close quarters combat.

Wrestling/grappling is the original martial art, and has formed the foundation of armed combat training from ancient times, in Europe and well as Asia, because, when humans get close, they naturally grapple, especially if one is armed and the other is unarmed.

Thanks Tim,

I have some of Larsen's material, in fact I am working on some Chinese republican era sources on military martial arts prior and during WWII to compare what they did vs. some western programs. More to come on that.

Cheers,

Sounds interesting, please keep us informed on what you find out, the Republican Era is fascinating period of time in China.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq1JG1-q18A

You guys might like this series and channel then.

This vid is about the Yunnan Military academy and how it accepted and trained foreign students from korea and vietnam in secret. tons of other stuff in chinese, some of it is subtitled!

Interesting channel. Thanks Robert!

Thanks Robert, I suscribed a while ago but forgot about it. Here is a nice doc on Chinese weaponry. Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbR6CDsItz0