Hi Tim,

Can you explain about the mind/body connection and how it pertains to fighting?

In many martial art systems, they refer to a mind/body/spirit trilogy. Could you elaborate on that also?

thank you,
Macaco fino

In my opinion, the concept of mind and body unity is at the core of the martial arts. Only when the mind is present and aware of the state of the body and its movement can maximum efficiency be obtained. Conscious awareness and control of the body's movement allows one to interpret feedback and adjust the posture, specifics of movement and amount of force used to the most appropriate level at any given time. Sensitivity is greatly reduced without awareness.
As far as "spirit" goes, I really have no idea what people are referring to, as EVERYTHING is observed and interpreted in the mind.

(Junk) Food for Thought:
The (koine) Greek word often translated "spirit" in the Bible is better translated as "breath." Now before you jump to the conclusion that Greek isn't say Chinese (& you're correct), consider the biblical story of Nimrod & the Tower of Babel (sp?) & then consider the written Chinese language (Tim, you should have fun with this one).
The biblical story tells how all the tribes of the earth worked together -- with a common language & implies a common cultural history -- to build a tower (for a variety of reasons; each an offense to the God; the Book of Jasher explains this best -- Jasher is a book tossed out by the Council of Nicea around 325 A.D.); the God destroys the tower, but not before he makes groups of people start speaking in different languages; so the people grouped up by language & spread out over the world; note that this all happened after the time of Noah's ark (when Noah, his three sons, & the wife of each -- 8 people total -- survived the great flood).
The written Chinese language is ancient -- pretty much unchanged (though meanings & usages change as in all languages over time). It's old (something like 4,500 years old -- so it was developed prior to China's exposure to christian ministers), and some of its characters are made up of several characters; so some characters can tell a story. It's most likely that the developers of the language would choose pictographs that had a common meaning among the people at the time of its development -- say folk tales/stories known by all via an oral tradition.
A Chinese word meaning ship (or something similar) is made up of characters that suggest 8 mouths in a vessel (note Noah's ark). Another Chinese word has the pictographs of words which mean (by themselves) garden, tree, & Devil (much as in the biblical story of the garden of Eden). I can get more specific (I will Tim, if you ask -- I just need to find my notes, 'cause my memory isn't what I'd like it to be), but hopefully you've all got the general idea here: common oral traditions eventually being written in both Chinese & Greek (yes, Aramaic stuff was translated into Greek prior to the Christ's arrival as a baby in Bethlehem, so don't argue this point).
With this now in mind, perhaps "spirit" has reference to breathing (breath control -- an important element in martial arts). Breath control is a product of mind & body coordination (if you hold your breath long enough -- an act of the mind's will -- you will eventually pass out & begin to breathe again, but until you're recovered your will won't be controlling this breathing process; so you see, martial-arts breath control is from both mind & body). {:o)

Mike,
Do you know what the meaning of 36 is and why a kata would be named that?

thanks,
Macaco fino

Hey Macaco Fino (or should I write "Quiz Master?"),
I feel like I'm on a gameshow (but what shall we call it? "36 Questions?").
If you are looking for specific answers to your questions, then I have none; but here goes:
"Do [I] know what the meaning of 36 is...?" You state "the" meaning; and "the" being singular tells me that you're either unaware that "36" can have multiple meanings (which I doubt is the case as you seem quite intelligent), or that you have a specific meaning in mind (of which my only clue in this gameshow is the reference to a "kata" in the second question). Hmmm (I'm probably out of time by now, eh?).
Well I know some meanings of "36." For instance, "36" has an agreed upon meaning in the (at least American) English language as being a whole number between 35 & 37. "36" is also known as an even number. "36" can be the sum,
or product (or what have you) of some other numbers (including itself even) in a mathematical equation (or an inequation if you use it as an answer in error -- well, this one's debatable). I'm no genius (I wonder how my genius friends would answer this one); nevertheless, "36" can be a name (you could call your dog "36" much as "Star Trek Voyager" has a "7 of 9"), or it can refer to the 36th item in a list of items. Taking the Orwellian point of view ("1984"-like), "36" can mean what someone has told you it means (essentially it's all an "agreed upon reality" -- 2 + 2 = 5 if you accept that...even though it equals 4 in my opinion).
"...why a kata would be named ["36"]?" There are multiple possible reasons (inspite of "the" answer you may have in mind). For instance, it may be the 36th kata in a list of katas (way to many katas for me to memorize & study!), or perhaps there are 36 major moves or steps in the kata. This kata (if it exists as "36") can be named anything someone wishes to name (or re-name) it. I could call it "Blue," or "My Kata" if I so wish.
So, praytell: what's "the" answer (if any -- that is, "your answer" to your own kata question, if you've got one), & how does it tie into mind-body connection (other than the fact that a kata can be used to develop such for martial application)? I'm really hoping to learn something from all of this (please don't disappoint me).
Oh, did I write the secret word (& if so, then what's the prize, o' master of the quiz)? {:o)

Thanks Mike. I had no answer in mind, I just was curious. It's something that I've thought about for years.

Macaco fino

I'm not sure what kata you're referring to, but 36 is one of the important numbers in Taoism, and there are some baguazhang forms that use it.

In the pre-heaven arrangement of the bagua, there are four pairs of nine, making thirty-six (4x9=36). In the sixty-four gua there are actually thirty-six unique diagrams (8 uniques plus 28 which are repeated in reverse order, making 64 total from 36 formations).

Make of that what you will.

Oh, I'm disappointed in you Macaco fino -- you aren't the master of the quiz I was hoping you might be. {:o( {:o)

THANKS CHRIS for getting us back on track here somewhat (at least you're writing about martial arts -- and what you wrote brings up a good point I wish to discuss: mind-body connection in the form of philosophies & martial-arts actions). Oh, by the way, apparently we (Macaco fino & I) weren't writing about any kata -- sorry for the utter waste of time & space. Now about the connection between philosophies & martial-arts actions:
I would like to "warn" martial arts practitioners not to get too tied up in philosophy(-ies) for the sake of martial arts training. Why? Because almost invariably an effective art is developed FIRST, & then a philosophy or two comes along & somebody tries to fit the art into the philosophy, often changing & convoluting the art! And then so much time is wasted on philosophical dribble which confuses the average person. Fighting is fighting. Training to fight is training to fight. Philosophy is philosophy. Philosophy is neither fighting nor training to fight, so why place it into your art (if it's there now, I'd personally work to get rid of it) -- why alow a particular philosophical viewpoint to restrict your freedom of movement (your freedom of choice)?
Philosophy originally meant "love of wisdom," but it -- like many things -- has undergone change, so that over the past few hundred years it has become a general term to denote made-up explainations that suppossedly "explain" reasons or "investigates" causes of all that is known to exist (basically modern philosophy has become a bunch of hog wash -- & the PhD's shudder, or balk). It's best used in meaningless debates.
Want examples? OK (I'll assume some of ya do): (1) 5-Element Xing Yi is good stuff, but it gets a bit convoluted with its philosophies of fire, metal, etc., & this makes that or destroys this other (why waste time trying to memorize such? Oh, if you're a genius & like puzzles, then by all means go ahead -- just remember that the time you're spending on this philosophy is time away from martial-arts training) -- I'm told by a reliable source that there were only three "elemental" forms UNTIL THE 5-ELEMENT PHILOSOPHY CAME TO TOWN, then two more "elemental" forms had to be created to make the art fit the philosophy; (2) Ba Gua is also good stuff, & one can become a good ba gua fighter without any of its philosophy (only its principles are necessary for proper application) -- originally it wasn't called "Eight Trigram Boxing," it was merely a simple name, something like "Overturning Palm" or some such name, UNTIL THE 8-TRIGRAM PHILOSOPHY CAME TO TOWN, then everything just had to be squeezed into, or expanded into, or somehow modified into something that could reflect this "new" (fad) philosophy. This was probably done to appeal to a bunch of academic knuckleheads -- for financial purposes; but just try reading the instructions written with such a philosophy -- the average Joe can't make heads or tails of it & your average philosophical genius who can figure out its meanings probably will be too lazy or smug to perform its exercises anyway (I refer here to Sun Lu Tang's book on Ba Gua Chang or Zhang, or whatever the spelling is); (3) Ninpo Taijutsu came to the U.S. a bit prematurely under the guise of "Ninjitsu" with 5 Elements (turns out the guy who brought it over here added a Chinese 5-Element philosophy that the grandmaster admitted it never had, yet due to its popularity since its intro into the U.S. this 5-Element theory has pretty much stuck -- go figure; oh, yeah, & the grandmaster added 5 new belt levels that were never in the art before -- go figure that a$ well).
You'll probably do well just to LEARN the PRINCIPLES (& APPLY THEM) which lead to a mind-body awareness/coordination & leave the philosophical aspects of your art alone (let the modern philosophies LIE on their own). Allow your mind to be free to respond appropriately (spontaneously) to "what is" without clogging it up with thoughts of, "Oh, that's a water move, I must respond with a fire move -- now what was a fire move again?"
Now in all fairness, I must admit that from what I've seen of Zen practice, due to its simplicity & focus on "what is," it may have some value in training (but then, since Zen can't be explained by a practitioner in words, all instruction would be without words -- still one can really learn that way; and it develops one's power of observation too) -- but the moment one starts verbally communicating, debating/philosophizing about Zen it loses its Zen-ness. Yet never talking would cause many to miss some things that are best explained verbally. So while a philosophy may have some value it shouldn't be allowed to dictate your actions -- use philosophies as a tool if you will, but don't allow your art & yourself to become a slave to it (else your mind & body may become disconnected as a result of some artificial philosophy).
FINALLY, PLEASE CONSIDER THIS: What do you want? Do you want an instructor that instructs by saying something like, "Here are some ways that you can obtain a superior angle on an opponent so you can then hit 'm hard like this."? Or do you want an instructor that instructs by saying something like, "In the pre-heaven arrangement of the bagua, there are four pairs of nine, making thirty-six [& making me brain tired] (4x9=36). In the sixty-four gua there are actually thirty-six unique diagrams (8 uniques plus 28 which are repeated in reverse order [ for the love of God, would you please repeat that...er, wait, please don't], making 64 total from 36 formations)."? I'll admit that the strength of this second method is that it is so frustrating for me to make any sense of it that I may choose to get fighting-mad over such an approach. Send me in coach, I wanna hit something (I'm so damn frustrated by this dribble)!
Waddaya say folks? {:o)

Actually Mike - you're wrong, I did have a particular Kata in mind. It's an Okinawan Kata from the Uechi-ryu system. The name of it is San Sei ryu.

Let me state for the record that the Okinawan's I've trained with (and I've trained with some very old men that are high level) don't speak in esoteric harangues about Taoism or the significance of the philosophical aspects of the name of the Kata. I was curious about what you'd say. the bottom line is, you wrote a lot of words, but you didn't say anything...

good luck with your training,
Macaco fino

To Mike Taylor
Follow your own advice.The time spent writing all that stuff (while good humour etc.) could have been spent training!

Geez Mike, you sure have a lot to say for someone who "hints" of not liking to philosophize about martial art. When did this become the Mike Taylor rant board?

Mike,
What do you want? Do you want an instructor that instructs by saying something like, "Here are some ways that you can obtain a superior angle on an opponent so you can then hit 'm hard like this."? Or do you want an instructor that instructs by saying something like,.....
Look at Tim's post of 9/3 above. Now look at all you've written since (on practically every sub topic on the board)! Although you have some good thought's, you might try sharring a little at a time, this is not a support group. If you just need to talk you might consider joining "on and on anon"!

Mike - My post wasn't intended to be representative of martial instruction, it was intended to provide a possible answer to the question that was posed.

For the record, the styles of Xing Yi Quan that we now refer to as Five Element Xing Yi are reported to have originally included only the first three Elements, Pi (splitting), Zhuan (drilling) and Beng (crushing). Ba Gua Zhang was originally called "Zhuan Zhang" (turning palms) by the founder, Dong Hai Chuan, and included only three "palm changes" (the Single Palm Change, the Double Palm Change and the Smooth Palm Change). Tai Ji Quan also is reported to have originally contained only 13 methods (ward off, roll back, press, push, pluck, split, elbow, shoulder, Advance step, Retreat step, Turn Left, Looking Right, and Central Stability).

Mike -
I saw the gang forming (Remember History? I.E. Tom). I thought they were going to get you sooner. Ouch.

EXPLAINATIONS ARE IN ORDER:

(1) (To the Original M.F.):
You lied. "I had no answer in mind, I just was curious." VS "Actually Mike - you're wrong, I did have a particular Kata in mind." Oh, what does "San Sei ryu" translate to in English (36 ways)? If it truly is "something that [you]'ve thought about for years," then why did you ask like a freak'n quiz master? Why not ask something like, "Mike, do you know why there's a Uechi-Ryu kata called San Sei ryu?" I would have simply stated "No, but I can get in contact with Mr. Ahti Kaend (sp?), an instructor of the system & find out for you," or I would have given you his address & phone number if you're local. Ah, so little waste of board space (a board you helped design, eh?). {:o)

(2) (To Anonymous, Meynard, & Bob):
I've been all over the board this week in lieu of training since an injury kept me from training. The good news (all around I'm certain) is that I'm getting better -- SO I WON'T SPEND TOO MUCH TIME "ON BOARD" IN THE FUTURE (unless I get re-injured). So keep me healthy guys. By the way Meynard, did I prove my point? {:o)

(3) (To Tim):
Thanks again for clarification (my memory isn't the greatest -- so keep me honest). {:o)

(4) (To Ron):
I saw it too (esp. w/Orig. M.F.'s "quiz" -- but I played along hoping for the best). Fighting multiple opponents is nothing new in martial arts practice -- and I'm up for it (like, what, are they going to hurt my little feelings??? -- OUCH!). {:o)

(5) (To Chris & Meynard):
Yes, I understand -- you did a fine job. Thanks again. I wasn't picking on you, I just used some material you presented (which was perfect for the sub-topic that arose) & I chose to use it as a springboard to launch another sub-topic loosely along the lines of the main topic. So Meynard, you were right -- I did go on a bit of a rant there (I was being peevish) -- I took my mood out on the board (but it happens -- such is life). {:o)

I asked because you come across like a know it all. When I stated, "I had no answer in mind, I just was curious" I was just going to let it go, but you stated,

"Oh, I'm disappointed in you Macaco fino -- you aren't the master of the quiz I was hoping you might be. {:o( {:o)"

Which, to me sounded like another smart ass remark. So, instead of me just letting it go, I wanted to point out that you actually don't have a f#ckin' clue about sh$t but are willing to write volumes of verbal garbage to satisfy your own f#ckin' ego.

And for the record asswipe, I know Ahti. Yes, I've trained with Ahti many times in Walter Mattson's dojo. He doesn't know the f#ckin' answer either.

I look forward to meeting you next time I come to Tim's and do some training. "and I'm up for it (like, what, are they going to hurt my little feelings??? -- OUCH!). {:o)"
No bullshit.

Joe

Are you on steriods Joe? Or are you under 25 years old? You always want to fight everybody on the board.

From what I've heard Joe is all natural. He's just ornery at times. :-) I heard that it was something to do with his medula oblangata. heh heh heh.

That's not fair! Joe responded to what certainly sounded like a challenge by not backing down. I haven't seen him picking any fights. Quite the contrary, I have seen him demonstrate patience. However patience has its limits!

"I look forward to meeting you next time I come to Tim's." "And for the record asswipe"
Also look at some other "Macaco fino" posts. He is also arrogant.
Smith and Weston or Judge Judy will say "Hi" to him some day. Hopefully he isn't married with kids.