• Archive through August 12, 2005 August 12 - 07:36 pm [20]

Jefferey,

Very well put.

Wuxing, you may find this of interest (although I don't know if it has anything to do with chi). When I was in Alaska, the US Army was doing experiments and supposedly found that one could raise one's body temperature by as much as 2 degrees through concentration.

Also, the kiai-jutsu you speak of I've seen demonstrated when I trained Ninpo. It looked to me like the practitioner was using a sudden, very loud sound to cause a moving attacker to hesitate unexpectedly at a point of imbalance, if that makes any sense. There didn't seem to be any "chi" involved, nor was the sound so loud as to cause physical harm. You could feel forceful intent, and I suppose the timing took long hours of practice. Maybe there are further depths to the art, but this is my impression of the one thing I saw of it.

Ken,

Thanks for your insight...


The closest I ever got with "experience" to this... "temperature control method" or how ever you call it..lol'... falls to one man.... John Brown Jr....
{this guy's awesome, look him up,..if you want}

At one of his retreates...he went into a lake on a cold day...and through breathing concentration, and conscience body control,...{mental aesthesodicism??}
...he made himself sweat...and when he came out of the lake...standing by him, was like standing by an oven...

That was my real life experience with this phenomenon,..However, I did see on the discovery channel one time,about these buddist {at least I think they were buddist}monks, wearing nothing but robes, and going up to the tallest mountain,{in the area} on the coldest day,.. and testing themselfs in the cold, with "there version" of the "temperature control method"{for lack of a better word/s}. I guess that after the night is over, and everyone is still alive,..{and not suffering from hypothermia or other sickness} that it proves something in itself...

That's why I asked all those questions before... I would be interested in understanding different people's viewpoints, on how, and why, where, and when,... they think this works, and originated, on a scientific basis...and collabrate...
{solely on the basis of deepening our understanding, and mabey,.. sheding some light on the whole "Mystical Chi" topic, that because of conjecture, or simple missunderstanding,{On a scientific viewpoint!..NO disrespect intended} people so easily dismiss as a falsehood or "mystic" whoweey...please, no disrespect intended}

I mean this subject has been around for five thousand years or more, and has touched the lives of billions of people!...Can we really so easily dismiss it..?

thanks

WXW

I forgot...

Buddy...Tim...Well said.

WXW

Interesting post.

WXW. I agree with you regarding the training of the breath and the idea of the pump.

These are a few things that are taught pretty early in the training process at my school.

However, I have also been taught that the breath should be natural and that's it. Yet we learn breathing exercises.

Although my opinion may change as I learn more and understand more; right now, I think that the breath and the coordination of your breathing serves several purposes. One of which, is to ensure the breath is not being held upon striking an opponent (one of the so called "fatal errors"). The other is a combining of your mental and physical being that unifies and coordinates the body (all parts involved) to strike with the most effecient and tremendous amount of power, i.e. whole body power, without absorbing any of the force, or shock.

I think that through breathing (and stretching, among other things) you "wake", or "activate" those parts of your body and bring them into your awareness. And through practice, learn to control and coordinate them all at once to do the task at hand-fighting, or any other activity (moving or still).

I agree with Buddy:

"just ways to use the intention to affect and manipulate areas of the body previously not under concious control"

and think it goes along with WXW:

"required to develope specific breathing techniques that must be taught, because it is unlikely that the student will figure them out at the natural level?"
...Or on their own, for that matter...

Of course, I could be completely wrong...
Everyone's opinions on this subject have been very interesting! Thanks to all.

Best regards.

ANJ

Practice, Patience, Persistence

The Buddhist monks that practice raising their body temperature are Tibetan Lamas. The method is called gTummo Yoga and it produces some astounding results (like the monks drying wet sheets in freezing temperatures with their elevated body heat)

If anyone is interested in the practice, Herbert Benson conducted experiments with the monks in the early 80's and reports his findings in "Beyond the Relaxation Response." Benson concluded the researchers "didn't find any supernatural power" but the monks had developed outstanding control over their peripheral circulation.

I once saw a live demonstration of superhuman strength ( the man picked up a train carridge )apparently he learnt how to develope superhuman strength through the practice of chi kung.
I have been practicing chi kung for 15 year's but have not learnt to do this,does anyone know the chi kung exercises to develope superhuman strength?

SABRETOOTH.

Yes.

WOW. This stuff is really deep. Excuse me, I need to get a breathe of fresh air! I believe in "sniper breathing". One breathe, One opponent. Inhale. Next opponent.

one shot one kill,asshumper!
tim,how did those guys did that!
i'm sure they didn't have dryers!!!?
but that guy couldn't find nothing "unnatural"
about it,and them????
do you know what they did,to learn how to do that???i could really use that to save on electricity!
ps.do they have a trick for gas???
that i can really use!!!!!
really i'm curious about their training up there?
do you know any good books????or else?

I spent a couple years studying w/ Wai lun Choi in Chicago and he said the same thing about breathing that Tim et al.., say. Don't worry about it.
He did emphasize to some students to not puff out their chest or tense up too much. (some would say drop your chi, but he never liked talking about chi or breathing)
his reasons were simple for staying "relaxed".
1. It hurts less when you get hit
2. you expend less energy when fighting
3. you center of weight is lower and better for hitting hard and for preventing a throw/takedown.

I know a guy who was playing around w/ chi-kung breathing uhhhh stuff and tried to incorporate reverse breathing into his xing yi. his teacher said don't do it... he did any way and he started getting really bad headaches after 5 fist practices. Supposedly he was "developing some higher level powers"...he's lucky he didn't get an aneurysm from this silliness. He stopped Xing Yi and started Tai chi...still can't fight, but can talk for years about chi and crap.

You don't physically try to reverse breathing, it just happens after considerable skill has achieved, I don't think it's a conscious thing

Charlie,

"it just happens after considerable skill has achieved"

What kind of skill?

For those who don't know, with reverse breathing the abdomen expands during exhalation and withdraws during inhalation.

Learning this people should be aware with or of High Blood Pressure. The pressure created by the upward cycle of reverse breathing must be contained in the abdomen otherwise the pressure in your head can rise to a dangerous level. Be very careful if you have high blood pressure. Perform this part of the cycle softly, inhaling to the kidneys without forceful packing, or don’t perform reverse breathing.

If you try to work reverse breathing too much it becomes counterproductive and induces tenseness in the body.

I have become much more comfortable over time with reverse breathing and I feel that one's power is augmented by reverse breathing. I didn't do anything special with it though, I just allow it to happen on a sub conscious level, but it does happen. When I first started learning, I just used regular breathing. Over time as I was introduced a little bit reverse breathing I experimented with breathing both ways. Once I began to get the relaxation and coordination down and felt the different feelings and results with reverse breathing, it began to make more sense and it just began to get incorporated slowly.

What I'm saying is, just breath normally but bear it in mind and experiment with it slowly. It'll find it's way in.

The skill is the skill level involved in just breathing using diaphragm, I guess that kind of skill must be achieved, and the skill of containing reverse breathing in the abdomen. When you hit and reverse breathing at same time a sudden "extra" core stability is maintained, providing a greater power base when hitting.

Hey Charlie, I believe you and I'm sure you may have figured out something, but I guess this gets back to my point. "experimenting" with breathing could be a waste of time or possibly even dangerous (ex. of my friend above). Besides, what you're describing is still a very conscious thing that requires you to "physically try". I think 99.9% of us would be better off w/ more conditioning or experimenting with body aligment and structure instead? that seems like a better time investment for fighting.

I would be shocked if Jack Dempsey studied and intentionally incorporated reverse breathing into his devastating left jab...just good body mechanics and reliance on physics.

In my opinion there really is no substitute for hard/painfull conditioning and sparring...when I started I was wrapped up in chi this and that and reverse breathing vs. buddist breathing. then I started sparring, got my ass handed to me and couldn't last more than 3 minutes w/o gassing. Sure, meditating and chi-kung made me a better person, but not a better fighter. Ok, I could make my hands warm and it felt semi-orgasmic, but I do own a jacket and I did have a girlfriend at the time so what good was it? It didn't cure me 'cause I'm still an a-hole...if I could I would go back and trade it in for more, stance training, pushups, burpees, chins, one-legged squats, wrestler's bridges, time with the heavy bag, sparring...etc. I'm a martial artist, not a Tibetan monk...admittingly, my dryer at home sucks and my clothes aren't drying completely.

I agree when your knackered and adrenal energy loss has kicked in from full on sportman athletic output you have a real problem "just breathing alone", as for Jacks devastating punch, any boxer whom lets out a grunt or whoomph on striking on impact could be reverse breathing, when I hit the heavy back I let out a hmmphh/grunt type of exhalation on impact, but the internal arts are not specifically designed for full sportsman type overload maybe? Ahyhow it don't matter whatever disipline you try, we all start out in the best intentions with slick technique, then when the shite hits the fan, technique soon deteriorates to a mere 10 maybe 5 percent of what you could do sooo many times with considerable skill in the training scenario.

too Bobz
would you like to tell me what the chi kung exercises are for superhuman strength or recommend a book or two.


Many thank's

Sabretooth.

No.

Too Bob z


Why not,it does'nt seem like to much to ask.


Sabretooth.

people spend decades and thousand of dollars attending workshops, siminars, classes and retreats in a futile search for the knowledge I and very few others have.

superhuman strength excercises aren't something you just dole out on the internet like a recipe for chocolate chip cookies- especially not to those who aren't even showing enough respect to even write my name correctly.

Dear Bob*z'
I am sorry that I did not spell your name correctly,no disrespect was intended.


Sabretooth.

you just think about that next time you try to lift a train carridge.

Bob#2