To all concerned-
WHATS YOUR LINEAGE? DOES IT MEAN ANYTHING?


The Iron Bastard on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 wrote
"Lineage has no real meaning. It is tantamount to saying, my Daddy said, my Mommy said. However, what can you really do?" in the thread on boiling chi.
I thought it was interesting enough of a statement to reply:
Thursday, October 06, 2005
Lineage is what Chinese Martial Arts has as its statement of credibility.

If I graduate from Harvard it does not mean I'm a better lawyer than if I graduated from Glendale School of Law but we know the network made at Harvard is better. Not different; better.

UCSF, UCLA and UCSD Schools of Medicine are better than The Ross School of Medicine. All that is well known in the medical community.

So what difference does lineage make?
Well with lawyers and MDs the state regulates and licenses the practitioner- to weed out the quacks and shysters ( we hope), in Martial Arts there is no regulatory body and in the USA "The land of the Masters" there is a Great Grand Master on every street corner because that type of self promotion is required for marketing and product packaging.
There is no regulatory body or quality assurance in Chinese Martial Arts, not everybody is a champion but the greater CMA community recognizes the accomplished greats like Sun, Lu Tang. It is undisputable a direct line from his Tai Chi is the gold standard- like Harvard.
The School never dictates the skill of the student yet I am hard pressed to think of any greats that did not have one or several very accomplished teachers, especially those who are now and have been champions and became Founders of a new Ways of thinking and of training.

It is very lucky for us- Tim is a champion of that caliber and may be our new Urishiba, Kano, or Sun, Lu Lang.
Practitioners like them do not serendipitously appear from the ether
It takes hard , hard , hard work, practice, persistence over time, love and enjoyment of the art, talent and good teachers.
and without at least one good teacher I say you haven't a chance, not even if your Tank Abbot.

Anyway I was hoping to hear more on the topic and it did not seem to spark any intrest so I've revived for entertainment.
JAMIE

Lineage says (hopefully), "this is the same style passed on to me from these well known martial artists."
This is what some people like, it is a way of saying, "you know what to expect."
There is another way that I have encountered non-lineage. That was through the concept that says, "I have these titles and this demonstrates my fighting knowledge that I can teach you."
For different reasons each has merit, but I don't care one way or the other as long as my expectations are met for the purpose I am attending such and such school.
It is a way to say, "am I getting my money's worth." Since, after all, not many credible teachers are going to teach a willing student for free (insurance nightmare?). Though I have known one in BJJ.
Beyond that, need more time to think about the subject before replying further.

Super Great Grand Master BOB Bill Head (ChowJi Da Tai Sifu Head) was my only teacher, he ruined me for all others.
Master Head gives great Chi.
Being the founder of the Bob Style Tai Chi he proved his worthiness in push hands and forms competitions across America in countless nursing homes trailer parks and for one unfortunate chicken a cock fight in Kentucky.
I was honored before his death to be is one and only Officially Certificated lineage holder as well as his final closed door student (Guan Men Di zi).
The noble and honored distinction as the sole proprietor of the stationary posture fast set contributed to my legendary status in tournaments around the world as The Most Internal Artist ever.
Judge after Judge after Judge have labeled my demonstrations "UNBELIEVABLE"
My empirical research on The Psychedelic Effects of the secret herb on Chi Cultivation was recently a published in High Times Magazine ( Vol 13, BOB, JAMA & JAMA [Journal of Asian Martial Arts & Journal of the American Medical Association] Jan 2005, pp 13) has resulted not only in my 5th Nobel prize nomination; but, a fifth of Jack Daniels from a congratulatory student.
I know many unwary low self esteemed that are marked as rubes and nickeled and dimed to poverty over the years by chain schools that create their own federations and mandate endless forms over the decades for advancement never achieving acceptance by their instructors.
That is why I teach one simple free form, and it is a free form, if they want to donate those nickels and dimes they saved who am I to harsh the vibe of their mellow?

I have suffered the harangues and warnings of worry-warts, naysayers, staunch up tight prudes, Chads, Chad Wicks and Hanging Chads that warn of teaching for free as a nightmare for insurance and that's why I don't carry any.
To this end LINEAGE NOT EVERYTHING IT IS THE ONLY THING

I was wondering:
If it is the same style passed on do we ever get different style?
Yang, Chen Fu's form is considerably different then his fathers. Then his 3 most recognized student are extremely different in their teaching, Dong Yi-Jie, Chen Wei-Ming, Chen Man-Ching of the 108 form. They are all legitimate lineage holders of the same form from the same teacher and now a little more than 50 years after his death the three line have become separate styles within the same Family of Tai Chi how does that happen?
Is one better than the other? Do these cousin schools share or even get along?
just curious

Tai Chi BOB:
You go, I am sure your an inspiration to losers throughout the Martial Art world.

The only lineage worth anything in real terms, when learning any martial art, is can he or she take it, can he or she dish it out and, if so, can they explain and demonstrate to you how you can train to eventually develop those same skills.

Yes, lineage is important but it is often made the most important thing in taiji and similar systems. A wall of certificates and photos with famous masters, living or dead, is not an AUTOMATIC guarantee of quality in the current lineage-holder; although a lot of people seem to think that it should be...

No, Jamie YOU Go!
realy I mean it...
gO!
get the hell out of here
come back when you have a real insult

actually, I checked with several impartial parties and all aggree that Jamie's insult trumped (and summed up) all of yours.

You guys remind me of the year I coached a JV PomPom squad. Those girls were ruthless.

Bob#2
(coaching you)

Thank You Bob#2
-You coached a JV PomPom squad?
I'm not sure if you sould be scolded or congradulated
Either way you must a very multi-talented man
But now, if I win that tounament you may have to show me a cheer
JAMIE

One teacher once told me that regardless of who you studied with, look at the students. Their skill tells what they learnt.

Even then, very few teachers appointed their successor so it is still up in the air.

In my style all the masters are illegitimate lineage holders. In fact the only way you can become a master is to prove you are illegitimate. You can only become a legitimate teacher if you can demonstrate ilegitimate techniques. No technique is the real technique. Yin and yang. Ipso facto.

Bob #2, "actually, I checked with several impartial parties and all aggree that Jamie's insult trumped (and summed up) all of yours."

I didn't hear my phone ring...no email from you in my inbox...?

you're too partial.

Oh! Heather:
By the way I wanted to congratulate you on your Gold medal from your first Jiu-Jitsu tournament by submitting two opponents.

Maybe Bob#2 owes you a Red Hot Mousy Brown Terror Cheer?
JAMIE

If Bob#2 whips out his Pom-Poms that will be a "Terror Cheer".

Trumped comments brought to by:
Tai Chi BOB
The one noticibly not kissing up to any impartial parties.

by the way did somebody say party?

Thanks Jamie, and no "maybe" about it!

Awight, it's been awhile since I've done any cheering... but I suppose Heather deserves it after submitting two opponents in her first BJJ tournament. (I thought those fights were 1 on 1 but I reckon they let the ladies brawl in herds).

"H-E-A....Th-E-R....
Heather-she is MOU-SEY BROWN
Heather-she is so MOU-SEY BROWN
SHE'S BAD (UH HUH)
SHE'S HOT (UH HUH)
SHE'LL BEAT YOUR ASS DOWN IN THE PARKING LOT!

THAT CHICK'S BANANAS- B-A-N-A-N-A-S!
THAT CHICK'S BANANAS- B-A-N-A-N-A-S!

heeAAAAAATHER!!!!"

crud- I think I pulled a hammy!

Bob#2
You are one hell of a good sport.
your cheer brightend up the entire discussion board. I give you a 9.5 on the Jolly Good Fellow cheer scale
and I hope your hamstring get heals soon.
JAMIE

I have studeied with wellknown and not so well known teachers and they all had what I thought was good infoormation and I was able to learn and teach what I imagine they thought according to my understanding.

People have their own understanfing of lineage.
I have heard of many teachers who studied with famous masters but who are not on their 'status list' along with those who may not have any skill but whose name showed up on said list. So there is something more than skill or understanding that allows one to represent the master.

I use Zhongwen as example, who for a long time was the Yang style exponent and he spread Yang style but out of the blue comes the lineage group (whoever they are stated to be-I do not know) and they are now the 'cause celebre' of Yang taijiquan. Wang Shujin studied with a famous teacher but he was not on that teachers 'list of authorized students' but nonetheless he was well respected by many in his own right!

Yes I see
politics of exclusion makes good business sense

Wow...I have been gone too long! I almost missed my cheer!

I could almost hear the rustle of pom-poms!

I'm fairly certain I heard the slight snap of a hammy *sigh*