• Archive through November 23, 2005 November 23 - 03:32 am [20]

Some masters DID use stone weights for training. And they went beyond what we would consider "reasonable". Muay Thai has many more kicks and jumps than BG I'll wager. That would tend to wind a person much faster.

David,

I think it's important to remember that practically everyone that went about their daily lives a hundred years ago in China were strong by default. Life was hard and required a great amount of physical labor. None of the guys you mentioned sat in a cubicle all day before they started practicing martial arts.

In addition, all of the old time martial artist's training included intense exercise, at least when they were younger. Sun Lu Tang is a good example, he practiced hours a day, even into his old age. Qi propaganda aside, the old masters (the ones that really fought, many of the now popular teachers from that era really never actually fought anyone)trained very hard, on top of a lifestyle that demanded a great amount of physical effort in daily living.

Conditioning doesn't necessarily have to be with weights. I don't lift weights, I prefer the old ways, but regardless of one's preference, it is important to be strong and in good shape.

Tim,

Very true - not something i really considered - the fact that, of course, life styles have changed.Also, in addition to the "old masters" people such as Li Zi Ming etc, fought as guerillas in special forces for the Chinese, and this of course would demand phsical strength and fitness.

I also suppose it depends on the specific teachers personal experience within the martial arts.
Thanks for the replies guys!!

David White

Agree very much with Tim's observations.

Therein lies the reason (I suspect) why most CMA people don't square up well against Muay Thai or boxers.

I think the sheer level of physical conditioning that MT/boxers go through, is impressive, to say the least.

Learning techniques is one thing, but conditioning with e.g Tien Gan and Wu Xing is essential to developing endurance and total body power.

Regular running and body-weight exercises won't hurt too....

But having said the above, and just to clarify a bit from my previous email, i think that the kind of "strength" that is relevant from a IMA standpoint, is quite different from gym-developed "strength".

Not sure if I am explaining this clearly, but I think IMA strength relies more on using connected structure correctly, developing peng, and ability to issue force using the structure.

These kinds of strength can be developed (through standing, circle walking, Tien Gan) even as one ages.

I.e. Paradoxically, as one ages and assuming one trains correctly, one's "strength" increases. IMHO, I think few external arts can lay claim to this phenomenon.

One last thought: If one also fights using IMA strategies and principles, in theory, size, weight and "physical muscle strength" alone should count for less than skill (footwork, technique and sensitivity) and total body power.

E.g.If you look at Gao paired exercises, the more you rely on muscular brute strength, the easier it is to deflect and neutralise. Even if 2 persons are closely matched in total body power, the footwork and neutralisation techniques (+ its variations), always allow you to change postion/distance/direction such that you can avoid the main point of force, and counter.

2 persons, using total body power, doing paired exercises with correct bagua principles, is a beautiful sight indeed....

Personally, for me, I think that if I am coming off second best in sparring, I always go back to see how I can improve upon basic skills and principles.


If anyone has seen Mifune's old judo VCD, you will know what I am talking about. He is effortless in how he skillfully counters, leads, positions and throws his opponents. His physical movements manifests IMA principles. And he's a old dude !

Thanks for your patience in reading such a long post...

Tim's point is an excellent one.

The fighters/warriors have alwaus been the 'outcastes' (limited education, societal ignorance about them, lack of status objects as self adoration, etc). They have had to toughter their physical attributes to succeed in a 'tough' world.

I liked the romanticism behind internal styles.The possibilities of defeating a bigger opponent with less effort.


Nonetheless, I think finally there is no internal or external and people get confused due to different terms and concepts from different cultures.

In the old days all fighters/warriors train more or less under same principles with different approaches. With changes in the West the old methods got lost. New schools of thought like bodybuilding took over.

However, i "sense" that cultural gaps between East and West are narrowing.Reasons???

Globalization and other like recovering ideas like "functional strenght".

Yours,

Jagdish

Wait a minute...

I sit in a cubicle all day.
I rub my chi at night.
I won't be a great fighter?

What kind of crap is that??? You are kookoo!

Remember, there's only one Betty, BIG BALD BETTY!!!

Anyone who knocks getting stronger to better improve their ability in the ring or in life is hiding or protecting something.

As Tim mentioned and some others elaborated on, most old-timers thought that strength training was a waste of time b/c they were basing these beliefs on examples lent by body-building mostly. These same masters would probably tell you that lifting weights was a waste of time, and then turn around and demand that their pupils sink into Ma Bu lower, or jump higher, or do more pushups. Shaolin used 'stone-padlocks' and other lifting stones, and IMA like oversized weapons. There are many ways to get strong. Most old timers came to the game strong.
Have you ever heard someone use the expression 'farm-strong' to describe some gangly kid who can somehow flip a car over, or lift a heavy object and put it on a distant counter or shelf? These guys have integrated, whole body power, from a life of physical demands. They intuitively use their hips to move large weights with great speed or over great distances. Common chinese people had it too, and some athletes and strong men that train correctly have it too. You are not going to gain this by hitting the machines at Balley's, but that does not mean that every martial artist that enters a gym is wasting his time or selling out.

"Masters" that tell you that you don't need strength are like the ones that tell you that you must not train in another style. They are afraid that you will go out and learn something that they can't teach you, thusly reducing their prestige, mystical powers,pride, their pocket books or whatever it is that they are protecting.

Jagdish,

Excellent point! China is inching up as an obesity capital. By 2008, if not now, Chinatown in USA will be more Chinese than Beijing!

china will always be the middle country though.

Spain has the most fat teenagers of Europe.

Betty,

Why do you keep reminding yourself that there is only one "Big, Bald Betty" ? Sounds like the first signs of incipient Alzheimer's disease.

But we still luv ya.

Who am I???
Oh yeah... Big Bald Betty!!!

Thank you