hello everyone,

this question is for tim, tims students, and anyone who wants to reply. my question is, why did you begin to train in the ima's?, are they really that important to the effectiveness of your fighting ability? chi gung too, why practice this if you want to learn how to fight better? why not just take a simple external art like karate or muai thai? in my opinion, the internal arts are superior, but i just need some insight and inspiration.

thanks, much respect, rob.

What's your definition of internal? Tim kicked the crap out of me the first time I met him, and still does. I'm not able to say the same about any of those chi-huggers I've come across.

There's nothing external about muay thai, boxing, or any grappling art I've practiced.

On the other hand, just b/c someone is practicing Tai Ji, it doesn't mean that they know what they're doing. If an instructor can't fight w/whatever it is he/she is teaching, then he/she is wasting my time as a student.

I don't practice qi gung, but I do the forms and nei gung in my free time. Class time is for sparring w/people of different sizes and abilities.

I think there is more options in the internal. You can learn to hit hard in both internal and external schools, but with the internal schools you can also learn how to change quicker or adhere and stick better.

Qi Gong or Neigong is good for your health. So there is nothing wrong with that.

Magic. I wanted magic powers.

-Chris Hein

I'm with Chris. I wanted magic powers too.

But then after I got them I moved onto the important stuff.

Ed

Not one of Tims' students - but i initially began out of interest in IMA (particularly BGZ's) ability to move and generate Qi. But this was after many years of "external" MA.

BGZ offered (and continues to offer) me insight into real combat techniques and experiences aswell as internal grounding and exceptional power in regards to Qi and martial application.

This, i found, to be more than what the other MA could offer.

DSW

death touch.

while circle walking.

after studying the "external arts" for years, I seen some real "internal" people use much less effort to get the same results, that seemed pretty logical to me.

I began in taekwondo in secondary school and after joined the Marine Corps and that put some reality in my training. external or internal is irrelevant. it has to do with conditioning and skill and being observant.

i could say that i agree with each of your posts.(even the magic powers one, lol)

my definition of internal? well thats a hard one. Well here goes nothing,

since i first took interest in martial arts(taekwondo age 6) it seemed simple enough, a few different punches here, a few different kicks there, forms, tests, sparring, bla bla bla. it was all there in plain sight to see, there was nothing really for me to discover, the training methods were simple and obvious. i also wrestled in high school, this art showed me that conditioning and heart also played a big role in ones success in the martial arts, and although certain internal principles were there i.e. following and sticking, they were not TAUGHT.

when i reached college, i found a judo class that i could take and from this i discovered a whole new concept of training, a whole new strategy, one which used the opponents force against him, one that is cunning and clever in ways of attack and defense that the opponent would never see coming. when i reached a certain level of proficiency in judo i began to understand the great grandmaster jigoro kano's philosophy of maximum efficiency, i felt that i hit a milestone, and this caused me to scour the central library for all texts on martial arts.

i read every single book that i could find. i was truly captivated, and also noticed the similarities between arts such as tai chi and pa kua, they utilized a circular martial philosophy, gentleness, etc, and this i found i could apply to judo very effectively, so now im trying to learn all that i can about the internal arts because i feel that it is a great pathway to greatly improve my current skill level. unfortunately i havent been able to actually LEARN from a real teacher. and thats why im here, since i believe that sifu tim cartmell's skill is very high, this is my first choice to post my annoying questions.

What attracted me to the internal arts the first time around was the lure of mystical powers. What brought me back after many years of external arts was a quest for efficiency. I found Wing Chun, then Xingyi and Taiji. I study internal arts because they are logical and efficient methods of combat, provide health benefits, and hopefully one day I will have mystical powers ;)

I'm not a student of Tim, but have great respect for his skills and teaching methods.

I started with external martial arts, primarily karate, aikido, and unarmed combat in the army.

I switched to internal arts because of I was searching for a art that would be less dependent on natural physical attributes.

In karate, I was always trying to bulk up, hit faster etc.....But after a while, you realise that there is only so much the physical body can do, esp with age. With weight categories, it was always hard to defeat the bigger man. (unless u master 'mushin' and 'fudoshin', which are topics for another day...)

Instead of matching muscle for muscle, speed for speed, why not try to fight in a different way?

That was the question that spur me to look for answers elsewhere.

I love Gao bagua because it is such a complete system. Basic jibengong, power development, fighting techniques, paired fighting etc.

The emphasis on movement, neutralisation, using structure, not muscles, to neutralise and fajing, roushou, all meant that I could learn and grow in this art, even as I aged. I.e I could actually get better as I obtained more experience and skill.

The dependence on skill to win in a confrontation, not raw physical atrributes, was the clincher for me.



Kelvin

While studying in China,I met an american (!) gongfu student, who explained some things about chinese gongfu which really impressed me. Started learning some gongfu and taiji on a daily bases just after leaving china - only then I began to learn and went in search of the famed super powers (In China I did learn two month of western boxing from an apparently high level Khazak boxer)

I've noticed that with a skilled opponent, physicality matters a lot. If you enter into a competitive situation, such as Judo or BJJ, or something like UFC god forbid, you are not going to fight someone who has no clue. Then it does take strength and endurance to complete techniques.
When I watch fights such as these, sometimes skill is the reason that someone won or lost, but more often it is a blend of skill and conditioning, and usually it is conditioning that holds the lion's share of the responsibility. I feel that BJJ shares many principles with CIMA, yet if you asked a BJJ man who would win, the top girl in the class or the top guy, they're probably going to say the man. And that means strength is a factor. It's not a sexist thing, it's just that the man is going to be stronger, and if everyone agress that he has the advantage, then your forced to admit what an important factor it is.
A well conditioned IMA that trains realistically would be very well equipped for a variety of fighting situations. Tim and his students are the ONLY TIME i've ever heard of such a thing, and that is why I am here to talk to them and find out more about their training.

Of course, (sorry for my lousy English) if you study IMA, you should have basic knowledge about other styles too. IMA was invented to fight harder styles. If you do not know how other styles really work, how would you be able to defend yourself? IMA is not magic. If you just concentrate on practicing methods and techniques in an IMA class, then you are just fooling yourself. I think Tim and you who study with him has much more common sense than many people who only study IMA.

I know some groups that are very closed and never let anyone test their abilitys. And I also know a lot of taiji teachers that states: "Martial arts skill come from form practice." These guys have been around, saying the same thing for twenty years or more, and they still do not have any clue how to really use their taiji. They have never learned proper rooting and their movements are concentrated to the limbs. "Whole body power" is something they can't even spell.

I believe that neijiaquan was born out of common sense, and that should be the main reason studying it. Mysticism and magic only brings joy to the imagination of childish people.

I agree with Jason (so will virtually everyone that has ever fought in a realistic venue or on the street), physicality and conditioning are extremely important for real.

You don't necessarily have to be stronger to beat an opponent if you are much more highly skilled, but you still have to be strong enough and in better shape.

I'll repeat my ratio: If you are 100% technically superior to your opponent who is 50% stronger/better conditioned than you, you will be in for a very rough fight.

Tim,

I like the ratios - and as cross trainer i somewhat agree. But, what about alot of the older masters (Ma Chuan Xu,Sun Lu Tang, Li Zi Ming, Wang Shu Jin etc) that i have seen quoted saying that physical conditioning and strength training aren't useful - it all depends on how much Qi one has.?? What do you think of this?

It's an interesting topic as the Chinese notion of wasting time with weights and push ups etc - "externally conditioning ones body" is quite apparent in alot of internal martial arts schools. But then again with so many cross trainers, MMA etc physical attributes are sometimes neccessary.

I know that when i train Shooto, Vale Tudo, BJJ etc, mixed with Muay Thai it's a big advantage to have great cardiovascular and muscular fitness, but, when i train with them (sparring etc) and utilise BaGuaZhang i don't get puffed or fatigued at all.

David

Those old masters probably had a misconception of strength training brought on by grotesque body-builder types. They wanted their students to learn proper technique which reliance on strength alone would have hindered. Once this was done, I'm sure some kind of strength training was the norm. Their forms were drilled repetitively and with power. The chi kung postures are often yogic, requiring strength to maintain, and some of the movements are basically pushups, squats, etc. Spar for a while and see how winded you get. They probably just preferred their conditioning with more obvious combat applications.

I spar for a reasonably long time - utilising BGZ - without getting puffed. But as i said when i train Muay Thai etc. i do. Sure you get strength training from low stances, walking postures, holding weapons and crossing palms - but is this what you were referring to Tim? Or was it more to do with weights, etc.

David

my teacher has me doing 200 reps (100 each hand) of a 50 pound weight he has at his home, he expects me to reach a 1000/day in 6 months. he also has me doing finger pushups and squats. there is a certain methodology though in training the weights, it's not brute strength, rather a lot of leg and waist power is used (horse stance with the weight in front of you, the weight is lifeted all the way up to the waist and down). and as you get better you're supposed to use less external movement, until it looks like you're just using your arm to lift.