Shane,

I think the binding would have changed over the years and the pages may have been altered to fit them.

"BJJ people in general don't 'hate KFSS' (most probably have never heard of KFSS) what many of the posters here hate is someone who seems to be a blowhard, know-it-all, who says their art is the best, and goes on to say that anyone claiming to use KFSS in competition have, by default ruined their KFSS credibility.


Why hate at all. If you are refering to Jack and Old Timer upon scrutinizing their posts I see no claim to thier art being the best and they do notseem to be the same person. KFSS people seem consistent in the general theme that san soo is not for compitition.

Tim latest post agreeded with Old Timer. Has he had more san soo training than you?

(Especially blowhard, know-it-alls who post unregistered as several different names to agree with themselves and bolster their own oppinion.)

I think Jack and his various incarnations (if that is indeed what they are)are gerat. His posts are the most readable and well written outside of Mon Haw Woo. Other here seem to write wth less passion and more serious povocation. Obviously he has lived a lot of life or has a great imagination.

This discussion board would be less without him. I think you are being thin-skinned. Have some fun with them, they sure seem like they are having fun. I think Tin likes him even though he has been less than gracious at times.

Tim why don't you post a thread on best all time post for Humor, Content, Character and Overall readability.

That would be a good thread and stimulate some activity. This therad has had some hilarious moments.

Jerry L.

I used the word 'hate' only because I was trying to answer your question "BJJ,why do they hate KFSS". Personally, I liked a lot of the stuff I learned in KFSS for the short time I studied KFSS.

As for the similarities in posting styles of many posters, and the intent behind them; right or wrong you and I scrutinize differently.

Yes, Tim studied San Soo much longer than I did.

You think Jack is great... good. The man is certainly writes fervently.(You'll be complimented to know that, to me, you seem to exhibit several Jack-like traits).

I don't think I'm being thin-skinned. And I've had nothing but fun with them. I assume the same is true of Jack (and all his incarnations). Why would he continue if he wasn't enjoying himselves.

Can you please give an example of where Tim has been less than gracious to the posters on this board?

Pukers and puklets.

Shane is a closet san soo wana be.

As the previous poster or was that im-poster had to say.

Us san soo guys don’t think our art is the best, we know it is the best right down to the opponent’s blood stains on our shoes. Just cause we know, don’t mean we are tryin to shove up your skinny ass. Like all the rest of them wiggly objects.


Any of you fuckheads ever herd of a “sarpe” (Not the Chinese dogs dumdshits!). A sarpe is the last drink. However in Central A. the only real last drink is the one before you die. So we just never stop till we piss green.

Any you chums (like in bait) going to die on the mat – didn’t think so.

Sport on studs. I’ll die a murky and merry death but I continue to walk where I want, when I want and hope to die the way I lived – politically incorrect, rot dicked and cashed out bad check style. I guarantee onething, those last breaths won’t be filled with remembrances of all the extra time I spent at the office, It will however be succulent thoughts of the many hours I spent in the orfice.

Jackster swimin in Panama tonight SEAL style. If you numnuts only knew, youd be defuckinfanged that you got a peek into the real deal, instead of your normal daily deal dough. I taught San Soo with a guy named Peterson who hired me to teach SEALs in San Diego cept we had to call it SCARS. Then the fuckin top dogs military suits kept the name and Pete started callin it SAFTA. I liked playin with all the weapons, specially the cool demolitions, silenced service tools and other sharp objects. Gota a lota of perks and free hardware too.

Seriously, Shangle you got shingles or just bad crotch itch. “Minds that hate.” My prescription: Double chocolate sex twice a day with reformed 17 year old Columbian negro hookers. Priceless - for anything else there is Mastercard. Probably the only buying power you got is credit. Ten to one you are ass end in debt, married and pissed off about it. Well just think about me greasing high quality hookers gratis, while you’re palming it cause your tired of slamin the same ol crack. Waiter another Courvassie!

Back to you ShitShingles, or was tha Mr Bo Shangles and your pathetic posts and dance - don’t worry none, you see your Uncle “don’t dance” Jackie is like a trash can with the lid on tight. Yeah, if I don’t keep my head on my shoulder you quirelets fill me fullashit.

Bitch all you want with that imitation badatude. You’re punked and fried. Tim Said so – na na na nany. Now if Tin solider said so its gotta be right, right? Or righteous? Stanley and Shingles listen up, big daddy in an O. C. stylie said San Soo aint for tournaments there fore imitation san soo competitors aint practicing da real chit now are they??? Stanley! ohhh Staaanleey! you hearin me or year ears full of Braso from shining those medals and you daddy’s knob, would that be Tim. Tim yo daddy Stan? I still funny guy eh?. All them gooks whey down younder in Viet Sam thought soo. Will Slim, you still smilen – Boggy out.

Mommy, I’ll try and call form Cali next week. Sianida – Jubilant E. Jackulator

He meant I've been less than Gracious - you kissass cook.

What you jealous you got no style or flare except that burnin Roman candle up your ass.

Nice aint I?

And cetainly less tha Gracious. Oh yeah bout them books. Who gives a crap. Mr Woo could of made it all up for all I care and everyone is Jack. Tim you Jack? Pube Kooj & the Stan Man - you Jack? I think that's Jack behind the hay stack. What next Jack the bean stalker. Jack is omnipresent.

Reincarnated.

Seen ya,

Tim (I mean Jack - he he he...)

Jimmy's books are in San Francisco, and that is all I'm allowed to say. San Soo Rules! Jack conviced me of my errors. How can anyone argue against such logic.

Ah, yes the super secrets within a book trick. It will certainly attract an assotment of customers.

The Books of Books san soo rule i open my eyes i see the light is bright at the end of that light is the book of light san soo rule

Jack, you are a scary guy. However yout last posts lack any san soo content. A little heavy on the smart ass and lite on the message. Larry from Whittier.

i f i hear the word Quirelets again i think i m gonna explode.

QUIRELETS!

QUIRELETS!!!!!

Shane,

I’ll pick up for Jack lack of content. According to his posts he is either working or playing, or both.

What the San Soo community needs is an authority like Tim Cartmell, except one dedicated to San Soo as Tim Is dedicated to his martial art.

That is most likely why this thread is getting the recognition it has as there are some very competent first generation masters and top belt posting.

There is nobody else who is providing a place to discuss San Soo.

Also, the generation Jimmy taught was one of the first generations to learn authentic kung fu from a Chinese Master from China.

Think of it like the reason sport figures compete today (recognition and money) versus why they competed years ago (love of the game).

I do not think there is an “Old Timer” unbiased enough to provide such a service, so we seem to be gravitating to Tim’s sight. Tim is gracious enough to accommodate us. He seems to be a good sport too – unlike others.

Jimmy helped to create some character and his motto of confidence and character created some free talkers. More free talker than thinkers. Never the less, many of those practitioners took their study to the streets. Do I defend them, Yes. And do I blame them, also Yes. It depends on the site-specific situation and as Jimmy said, “one man doing his best.”

Personally I applaud Tim for doing what he does? Why, because he is following his heart and head. Is it what I like? No. Does it need to be? No.

My advice to Tim would be to blend a San Soo course that gears his students to the pschycological acceptance needed to win on the street, which also develops the primal instinct to prevail. Sadly it is like oil and water. It does not mix.

This is the reason Tim does not teach San Soo. And rightly so and I applaud him for it. If he did, he would make a Frankenstein art out of it as so many others are doing. It’s either San Soo or its not. No hybrid. Bringing a technique learned from a different art and incorporating it into your San Soo style of practice, without changing mindset or your purpose (to use it on the street and not compete in tournaments) maintains San Soo authenticity.

I think this is what Tim alluded to when using the Choi Li Ho Fut Hung analogy.

The crux is the dependence on a neutral party to stop the “fight” destroys the mindset required to maim or kill. Hence, I refer to the below statements by Shane:

“Over my years of training I've learned (and practiced) many 'F-em up' techniques, techniques that would absolutely put my opponent in the hospital, or worse.”

“However, in a competition or sparring I would not attempt any these techniques.”

How have you practiced them (I am not being sarcastic)? In cooperative practice (Tim’s term, not mine)? When you practice with upper echelon San Soo practitioners all the practice is action / counteraction as the standard alternating two-turn practice has been set aside for those of lesser knowledge.

Counteraction simulations has the advantages and disadvantages of your sport style competitions (except with different variables), that is, - it is still not real fighting. Fighting is fighting, to refer to boxing or cage tournament or wrestling, or any kind of sport with rules is a misuse of the term “fighting.” You can argue semantics but all who have been in serious fights or battle understand.

San Soo presents and practices the mindset and the awareness to enter into these techniques instinctively.

“When I am sparring, I mentally notice where one of those horrible, deadly techniques might work,”

In San Soo if you mentally notice where they work you have not developed the instinct to spontaneously (without thought) apply them. They are not instinctive to you.

Why, because you thought about or “noticed the opportunity” instead of found yourself applying them.

A major objective in San Soo is to make movement without thought spontaneous – instinctive.

San Soo practitioner come to find their opposition in deadly positions and then back off (hopefully, or not, depending on the situation)

San Soo teaches to go for the kill every time. But it also teaches not to poke a man’s eye out for looking at your girl. That is to be judicious. To be judicious you must be in a position of power FIRST. Then back off.

Most martial arts teach how to go halfway through competition and if you ever need to really fight for you life they teach a “Then you do this” attitude.

San Soo approaches it from the opposite side. “You do this” and then if you wish not inflict too much damage you back off.

These are philosophies only. Everyman gets to the position of power using what elements he possesses including luck. However, it a large difference in mind set. Authentic San Soo is practiced with a mindset that the fight is in the street and there is no neutral party to stop it. Every technique is practiced this way if you are learning authentic san soo.

This mindset connects with the primal will to survive.

If you try to mix the competition mind set with the street mindset, you get a neutered animal.

“but having never actually used them at realistic speed against non-cooperative opponents, it is doubtful I could ever successfully administer them in the heat-of-battle.”

This is my point and I think nothing less of the martial artist for theses feelings. I have seen many people study San Soo for years that could not do it either.

They studied for their own reasons. These reasons where contrary to street fighting however.

“(the way some folks in KFSS present themselves, their entire style is based on that scenario, which makes them appear a little goofy).

Goofy, no. Anybody who has ever been faced with the choice of “me or them” would never refer to combatants in the purest sense with this verbiage.

Shane you may think that killing is deplorable. To me it depends who is being killed.

There as forces out there that you may wish to deploy people with such “deplorable” abilities (to kill) to protect your nation or way of life.

“I'm not saying some KFSS practitioners aren't good fighters, nor do I dislike what I've seen of the style. I'm just pointing out why some of the KFSS posters here have drawn criticism)”

Some are and some are not good fighter. And fighting is not good, it’s ugly. I believe that is why (again) authentic San Soo practitioner and aware kung fu artist chose not to use their art for financial gain or entertainment.

According to Jimmy in the past kung fu artist have chose to practice their skills in non-cooperative situations. These situation involved small groups and were used as a learning tool, not as entertainment or vanity.

One last long winded thought (guess I’m a San Soo Man). I disagree with those who say that martial arts must be taught with philosophy. Must be ? No It would be better if so. However, San Soo, because of its applications, Must Be taught with philosophy.

Old Timer

Good post Old Timer. Sure does help when someone as wise as you takes the time to explain. You have the ability to make logic more clear. And understandable. Thanks for posting again.

Good post old timer. One question, how does the san soo guy know for sure that the techniques he practices will work for real? I'm not trying to be argumentative.

I met someone today who trains in KFSS in Riverside, CA with a guy named Hopkins. He told me that they sparr non-cooperatively every class. I was really surprised by this as most KFSS schools won't sparr non-cooperatively. I went to Hopkins' website and Hopkins apparently also trains in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Eskrima. It appears that Hopkins believes as I do that non-cooperative soarring is essential and that incorporating other styles of martial arts will make KFSS better. I guess there are some KFSS guys who are open minded. Martial Arts should be an evolution and blending of techniques that really work, just like at Shen Wu.

Old Timer (Jack),

I got bored about 12 mini-paragraphs into your post and gave up- but here's the first obvious snag for me....

"What the San Soo community needs is an authority like Tim Cartmell, except one dedicated to San Soo as Tim Is dedicated to his martial art."

That statement completely explains what all the KFSS practicioners in this thread are missing; the crucial nugget which holds them back from true greatness (re-read that twice before moving on).

Tim is dedicated to 'THE' martial artS. Not to 'A' martial art. What the San Soo community needs is to realize there is more to 'fighting' than San Soo and Jimmy Woo.


"There is nobody else who is providing a place to discuss San Soo." I wonder why.

I just read further....

"Shane you may think that killing is deplorable. To me it depends who is being killed."

Why do you assume I think killing is deplorable?

Shane,

Only the boring get bored. And I cannot be held at fault for you attention span. From your post, I also notice that you are one who reacts - not acts. That is inherently negative and easy. Acting is positive and progressive, you bring something to the table, there is an element of creativity and energy that your post seem to fail to deliver. Creativity is an asset of San Soo - a thinking mans art.

As your post states - you could never do it. You are a sportsman. San Soo practitioner never give the opponent a sporting chance. I don't belive from the mentality of your posts that you are a "fighter" - again "in the purest sense" of the word. I do believe you are sports fanatic. And of course you have a favorite team. Team shen wu (This mentality, this preference, is undoubtedly the source of the term ‘Quire.”) Preferences in fighting should be avoided at all costs. Actually preferences in general are limiting.

As far as "a" martial art goes, Kung Fu San Soo is not a martial art. It has a martial art component - its protection techniques. Those who deny that there is more to San Soo then hand-to-hand technique are also those who most likely did not study forms or weapons, let alone philosophy.

As Jimmy put it "if you want to know all of Kung Fu you must live for more than one life time, it is to big, to broad to know it all in one life." To put it simply there is more than one "martial art" in San Soo. In the most basic sense there are five - ask Tim to explain.

San Soo builds character, and not in a sports mentality "I'm the winner" way. Personality, confidence, courage and character are the most important aspect od San Soo and life. The fighting techniques are an apparatus used to teach those characteristics. Most people cannot see that and this also threatens their self image as “fighting beauties” - as Jack (and thank you for associating me with him) would say.

Kung Fu empowers people to perform beyond what would have previously limited them. It enables people to communicate, drop defensive barriers and allows for discussion. You are very defensive regarding your point of view - you could use some San Soo philosophy to compliment your sports training; a vain and competitive way. It might make your haughty tone if not palatable at least unique. You seem like an angry person.

James,

“One question, how does the san soo guy know for sure that the techniques he practices will work for real? I'm not trying to be argumentative.”

How do you know your techniques will work for real? I too am not trying to be argumentative either.

First, establish the context. What is meant by “for real?” On the mat? On the street? These are the kind of philosophical questions that San Soo explores.

Real is what you experience in the moment. If one does not compete, then reality does not extend into competition. If reality is determined by ones daily encounters, then the strategy of street fighting and the psychology of the body- and mind - become very important to the functionality of technique.

The application of San Soo to life is more like chess. Martial arts are more like checkers. Chess has unlimited variables, checkers has limited strategy and variables.

I think the crux of your question has to do with either how can I win (in competition) or how can I feel protected (in the street).

I know nothing about competition. In the street, you know by application. Street application, like chess, involves strategy. You do not say, "hey you I don't like you lets fight."

Techniques are not the focus (this differs in competition, as the activity is the focus).

In the KFSS paradigm, the results are the focus. The results on the street are much wider than the results in competition. In competition, there is a winner and a loser. The loser usually suffers injury to his ego only. And the results are status as the winner etc.

San Soo is used to create results in an arena that may range from protecting yourself to liberating others from oppression (and all in between). That is a big mat. The results can be saving your life or others or enabling someone to escape a life of servitude etc.

Then you add in all the different places these events might occur and you understand not only the immensity of the variables but also the importance of your success.

If you lose with your strategy and technique - you lose more than your pride (read Musashi to get a better feeling for this - Victor Harris translation) if you have read it, please read it again).

I could go on and on as San Soo is designed to explore these philosophical questions in depth, it is the "why and when" of fighting versus only the "how."

Usually those who have never studied the “why and when” of fighting feel threatened by these type of discussions, similar to those who do not know technique feeling threaten by the mat.

San Soo is designed for the big mat, the other mat the lays outside the door of competition. It is where you spend almost your entire life.

“I met someone today who trains in KFSS in Riverside, CA with a guy named Hopkins. He told me that they sparr non-cooperatively every class. I was really surprised by this as most KFSS schools won't sparr non-cooperatively. I went to Hopkins' website and Hopkins apparently also trains in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Eskrima. It appears that Hopkins believes as I do that non-cooperative soarring is essential and that incorporating other styles of martial arts will make KFSS better. I guess there are some KFSS guys who are open minded. Martial Arts should be an evolution and blending of techniques that really work, just like at Shen Wu.”

To this I reply, one: Does he compete. If he does, it is not San Soo and defeats its purpose and intentions. Thus, he should rename his art. Two: does he use ground technique in an auxiliary fashion practiced the BJJ way and does he explain there usage in reference to the street. And is the above true regarding weapon techniques etc of Eskrima.

If these aspect are used to compliment the San Soo mindset then adding other dimension to one variety would still be teaching San Soo. If these dimension are emphasized at the expense of what makes San Soo authentic, that is the deeper purpose of kung fu and the instinct, creativity and spontaneity learned from the art, than it is another Frankenstein sport comp art (which is fine), not authentic KFSS. Just another guy trying to make a living at what he likes to do and also enjoy some camaraderie and recreation. That’s not a bad thing. It’s just not Kung Fu San Soo.

Shane, one more thing,

"That statement completely explains what all the KFSS practicioners in this thread are missing; the crucial nugget which holds them back from true greatness."


If you can, and I doubt it, please explain "true greatness."

The explaination of true greatness:

Honest Excellence.

Old timer - Thought provoking post. I like the "big mat" concept.

Thanks for the straight talk and insight.

Shane - Honest excellence? In what, Parchesee? Maybe high school wrestling? How about tidly winks.

Old Timer writes an inteligent post and that is your Queen of the Quire reply. Maybe you are trying to be the Jack of the Quire. What back to biased squabling?

OT was right about your attention span which shows in your frivilous, obtuse and incomplete definition.

I think this difinition is elusive for most and particularly for you.

Try sticking to terms you know something about, ie: arm bar, mount etc. Also anger mangement class might be a plus. Otherwise when someone puts you in your place, do us all a favor and stay there.

Larry from Whittier

Hats off to Larry! I think the "Queen of the Quire" is VERY fitting for Shana. Sounds like it's "that time" for him.