Hi Tim and others here,
I was wondering what was your opinion on so called reverse abdominal breathing (abdomen contracts on inhale, and relaxes and expands on exhale) and actual martial art?
I remember the argument that if you push a heavy load, you naturally do the revers abdominal breathing anyway, however, when you expand the abdomen doesn't it "tenses" and not "relaxes"?
Do you guys at the academy train this type of breathing specifically?
Thanks

Although I don't attend the Shen wu academy...

Reverse abdominal breathing and abdominal breathing {Taoist and buddist}helps to regulate your body and Qi...{From a Chinese medical view point} It is more natural and relaxing to train {Buddist breathing} because the major Qi flow circulates in the 12 primary channels{i.e. along the limbs}while a small amount of Qi expands outward to the skin and also contracts to the bone marrow...In reverse breathing,{taoist breath} the major Qi flow is directed to the skins surface and the marrow, while the secondary Qi flow circulates to the the limbs,and small appendages..While {buddist breathing}enhances relaxation...{Taoist breathing} can make you more tence and excited because the Qi is regulating in the muscles to energise them to a higher level.

Thanks,

WXW

One time another student asked my teacher about practicing specific breathing methods to use when fighting. My teacher asked him if he ever had to consciously regulate his breathing during other activites, like when he was talking or eating. The guy said no. My teacher said "then apparently, you are already good at breathing."

If your alignment and movement are correct, correct breathing naturally follows. In the absence of specific problems (holding the breath for example), students will regulate their breathing naturally and efficiently without specific training.

Training for superior cardiovascular capacity through demanding exercise is the best "qi gong" for fighting.

"If your alighment and movement are correct,correct breathing naturally follows."


Very good point...

My questions is...

Are not more advanced trainings{for fighting, Qi gung, ..or anything else} required to develope specific breathing techniques that must be taught, because it is unlikely that the student will figure them out at the natural level?

Hi Tim and WW,
Thankyou for your answers. The interesting thing is that there seems to be such diverse opinions regarding breathing and martial arts....
Since Tim has an extensive background in internal martial arts, he would be a good source of info and opinion....Your question WW is interesting when you hear etc people talk about raising your Qi on the inhale and then suddenly sink it....

All of my in-laws are Buddist- they breathe like everyone else. Judging by the off-kilter snoring technique one of by brother's exhibits, he suffers from sleep apnia.

Just my 2cents worth - but my school teaches exactly the same as Tim. We are fortunate enough to have access to a fairly wide range of 'technical advisors' in the far east and, whilst there is much they disagree on, they all agree that trying to force the breath is counter-productive. (FWIW they also say the same about chi circulation)

Personally, I used to be a Buddhist monk, and I have tried almost every meditation technique in the "book." The best breathing technique IMHO is the where you actually breathe normally. People get too hung on all these different breathing techniques, and some of them help but normal breathing for martial arts, meditation, or daily activities is usually the best and safest way to go.

Peter,

How so?

Wuxing,

I'm not sure what you mean by "more advanced trainings"

Breath timing can be taught for fighting (appropriate times to inhale and exhale, duration of a breathing cycle) but the breathing is still natural.

Pretending that your breathing is circulating qi here and there may have theraputic value or serve some other function, but I've never seen it prove beneficial for fight training.

"Breath timing can be taught for fighting {appropraite times to inhale and exhale, duration of a breathing cycle} but the breathing is still natural."

Another very good point...that I 100% agree with.


The way I was taught, was to focus on expanding, and contracting, the body in certain ways..{i.e. openings and closings, or more specific... spinal breathing,for cerebral spinal fluid circulation...kidney breathing, joint breathing, reverse breathing, and such methods...}

The outcome of such methods,...{relating to breathing}... acts like a pump, and is controlled by the different muscles and tendons of the specific area of the body,that are focused on. After a certain period of time and practice, the muscles of the surronding area,devolope a strong endurance, and the strength is internally built up to a higher level.

The feeling of a internal "heat" or "tingle", {i.e. Qi} is the release, of the stored bioenergy created by the absorbtion of carbon,hydrogen,oxygen,and minerals, gained from food and air by the cells in use, from the bone marrow. Which in turn creates a sort of an bioenergetic "Water wave" effect,...{or "circulation" through the marrow, fascia, and blood, around the whole body}...

With time and practice, that "circulation" can be "lead" by the neural electricial receptors of the brains many signals to the body..


The point I'm trying to make, is that through specific methods of breathing practice,and the formation of a strong union between the electrical curents of the brain,{i.e. yi/I} and the releasing of the stored bioenergy from the cells{i.e.Qi/Chi}, you can raise the level of endurance and proformance for such activities such as fighting and extream sports..

At least thats what I was taught...but who knows?

Peace

WXW

How often would enemies give you a chance to do all that before attacking?

Wuxing,
I presume when you ask 'How so' you mean the bit about forcing the breath (or chi circulation) is counter-productive?

OK - first I should clarify that I am speaking from a predominantly taiji background. Also that we're entering the realm of my understanding of my teachers teachings - so caveat emptor as the saying goes...

Regardless of the purpose of ones practise, taiji is about learning to move efficiently in a relaxed and natural way. I would suggest that putting effort and energy into regulating the breath is neither relaxed or natural. Instead, my school teaches that, over time, your breathing cycle will naturally fit in with your physical movements. (The same applies if you want to replace breathing with qi circulation)

That said, we have nei gong and fa jing exercises that do place emphasis on particular breathing patterns. By the time you start to learn these, however, you have already naturally started to co-ordinate movement and breathing.

For what it's worth, this is a very different approach to my first teacher, who placed great emphasis on co-ordinating the breathing with the movements and visualising qi circulating round the body. With the greatest respect to my first teacher, who gave me good basics and started me on the IMA path, I have to say that I think there is more to be said for my current school's approach. After all, if you inhale on 'closing' type moves and exhale on 'opening' moves (for want of a better, short description) what happens when everything speeds up? And if you start looking for particular sensations, what's to stop the mind playing tricks on you?

Interesting topic....
Some years ago I did study a version of Yang Taiji but was disappointed in that I did not find myself getting martial ability.....I did some research into other Yang lineages.... you may have heard about Yang shaohou and his small frame taiji---some accounts of him performing his taiji with "roars and howls", similar description about Yang Banhou and his "withering shouts". It seems that these days its rare to find in Yang taiji although I have found "sounds" used quite extensively in some southern fist styles.
I inquired about the relationship of these sounds.... I think in effect they are used to assist the exhale and some how they do affect the power output. Some may describe this as using your qi but one explanation is that through making the different sounds you activate cerain parts of your core muscles and in certain ways leading to affecting "how" you generate fajing or whole body power.
If you follow the argument there is talk about how you make the sounds correctly ie using your abdomen and not your throat which leads again to the question of whether your abdomen should be expanding on making the sound (exhale) or contracting.... ie normal vs reverse abdominal breathing.....

Ken,

wu wei... from a lot of practice

Pete,

As my understanding of what Tim previously said, {but I don't mean any disrespect to Tim, as to speak for him,... so please correct me if I'm wrong, thank you}
in short: movement and breath are of the same natural intergration...this also applies to speed...{in my understanding}.
As far as sensation...ask your teacher, to help you through the correctness of posture and breath. When it is correct, the correct sensations will come naturally..

Question,

Very interesting indeed...

I'v heard the same stories about southern styles...{shouting crane fist,.. for example}

In Japan there is an art called Kiai...which the primary focus is on shouting..or more specific...
Concentrating ones internal strength{i.e. Ki, Chi, I think through Reverse breathing,but please don't quote me} and focusing it through the vocals to reach certain frequencies to cause damage or death to the attacker...COOL!!!

Kind of on the same lines, as an opera singer breaking glass...

Please note to all, that these are just my interpratation, from my experience/s...I don't mean any/or want, disrespect to Tim, or any one else's views, or understanding...
My answers just reflect what I was taught..as to weather there right or wrong, I'll let you decide...But please feel free to email me with any input...Thanks

Peace

WXW

I tried reverse breathing some years back after reading about it. My impression was that it could possibly lead to a punctured lung if done too forcefully. Anybody have any ideas about this or was it just my beer-er..."chi-belly" getting in the way?

Hello All,

This is my first posting on this website. I'd like to throw my 2cents in too (ok..maybe its more like 2 bits,lol). I'd like to address the breathing aspect from a scientific, biological standpoint (Western Medicine vs Eastern Medicine Philosophy). I am a Chiropractic Physician so I know my anatomy and physiology a little. I am also an instructor of Kung Fu San Soo (those of you who know Will Ford, he was the first student I ever promoted to black-belt).

Also, I just started taking Tai Chi recently for the first time (like last week!) and I'm not even sure if it is an internal or external style, and at this point i'm not sure it really matters. Regardless, in my specialty art of San Soo (of which I believe Tim has achieved a level of Master in) our forte, like most fighting/combat arts, is fighting and the breathing is focussed on exhaling on striking. Sounds are taught in the beginning to help students learn the proper breath movements of each type of strikes.

Short hand/arm strikes are accompanied by short vowel sounds such as yac/yak while wider strikes are waac/haa sounds for claws and other movements and short kicks with a dik/dek. Later, more advanced levels reduce the sounds to just the breathing components.

Saying the sounds helps the beginner to learn the breath movements but are unnecessary, even to be avoided as a liability (there is no point in alerting your opponent, including his fighter collegues, as you quickly dispatch him).

No offense WuXing, I dont know of any great masters of internal chi that can project their "chi" through their vocal cords into a devastating weapon with the exception of a Landlady I saw in a recent Kung Fu Adventure/Comedy Movie (that I loved BTW).

Breathing out, coordinated with precise timing of my foundational foot work and strikes is how I've been taught to develop maximum physical power sans any additional "internal" forces of chi power. Though Im a beginner at learning to "develop Chi" I will not rely on it (nor need it) to enhance my fighting power anymore than I would expect my bad breath (though noticeably repugnant at times) to be the deciding factor in a streetfight, though my wife may beg to differ on this.

Fighting and modified "natural" breathing (as described above)also does something else: breathing out when you hit/kick your opponent also aids in protecting you from your opponents blows and diminishes sustained damage too.

While exhaling, if you are struck in the diaphram or thoracic regions your body will collapse faster (exhaling faster) absorbing and dissipating the absorbed energy of the strike you just received while your mouth was open allowing the escaping gases in your chest/lungs to rapidly leave. Vs..mouth closed, in turn trapping the air in the lungs (now imagine you are squeezing a baloon)absorbint the energies of teh same strike, the forces have to first overcome the resistance of the contracted muscles resulting in greater internal injury and stunning of you. I think you get my drift, sorry if too wordy or confusing.

Now regarding breathing. I know that Eastern philosophys contain many different ideas on body physiological processes than the much more rigid "If-I-Cant-See-It-On-A-Microscope/X-ray" BS Dogma, from an functional anatomical standpoint we've got a least "respiration" figured out. Respiration is the transference of gases back and forth from the atmosphere (ie oxygen) into the body and the expelling of waste gases (Carbon dioxide) back into the atmosphere. This can only occur in one place: the lungs. There is only one type of tissue that can do this and that is Alveolar tissue specifically designed for that purpose.

The diaphram, along with internal/external intercostal muscles (muscles on/between the rib bones)are responsible for opening/closing the thoracic cavity (chest) and therefore directly controls the sucking in of air on inhalation and forcing out of air on exhalation.

Kidney Breathing, Spinal fluid breathing, etc...does not occur, at least not in the way it occurs in the thoracic cavity. Spinal fluid is not mystically transported via electrical movements. BTW I'm not sure of the true definition of "Chi Energy" anyway, everyone seems to have a different definition of it. There is even a "Chi" machine I see advertised for healing that was invented by (I think) asians. Anyway blood transports oxygen and fuel directly to most cells via circulation system. Indirectly some tissues rely on "osmosis" (look it up)to derive their nutrition and gas exchange to nearby vasculature. Spinal fluid is created by cells only in the brain. from there it "circulates" with gravity and body movements (the spine undulates in a whipping motion even when we walk)and this biomechanical stirring, if you will, is the way we as an bipedal organism controls many of our body's physiological processes "naturally".

I thought I remembered reading a statement by Tim somewhere (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the difference between Internal and External systems is not some mystical development of Internal (Im suspecting a reference to chi power) Power at all. I'm not even sure if that made any sense, maybe Tim can expound on that if he can understand my meaning, or if he even ever discussed a topic along those lines.

There is an idea that the skin can "breathe"...in reality the skin is an absolutely "air-tight" organ that is permeable (lets in/out) to certain fat soluble (things that can dissolve and pass through fat, like under the skin)molecules but is not permeable to gas exchange. "respiration" is not to be confused with "persperation" where water and dissolved ions are actively released onto the surface of the skin to aid in cooling of the body. Even if it was completely permeable (porous to everything) the skin tissue is entirely too thick to allow effective transport. Imagine if your lung tissue was lined by skin tissue...you wouldn't be imagining anything for long.

Kidneys, liver...all other organs have highly developed direct oxygen enriched blood supply in the form or arterial structures that deliver oxygen (intake gasses) to and remove waste (exhaust fumes) from the tissues for elimination out through the venous system in the lungs.

Anyway, Great Topic and nice to meet all of you.

Jeffery Wood

I'd like to see any of you demonstrate-
"External Breathing" "Christian Breathing" and/or "Athiest Breathing" so I can compare with the Internal and Buddest breathing methods you're so eagerly trying to learn.

Mr. Jeffery Wood

None Taken,...I read about this "Art", in a book titled "Secrets of the Samurai"..
I doubt that it has any real feasiability...But who knows...sometimes opera singers break glass, with high pitched harmonics...mabey there is some type of ""frequency"", that is lethal, when hit and sustained..but I dont know

Thanks for your insight...it is very interesting..

From your post,and Tim's post, I now have a better understanding...thanks again guys..

The carbon exhailed/expelled from the lungs,{and Hrrrmmm...other areas...}...is the decomposed waist{i.e. carbon}, that has been absorbed from the ionic process of "osmosis", by the food we eat, and air we breathe,...

My question is about the "bioenergetic", and "osmosis" process'es, of the dissolved matter. Converted into useable energy, through breathing/exercise, ionic reactions, and such methods...

That conversion...is a natural ionic reaction {"law of conservation"} by cellular enzymes,from hydrolases, and oxidation reduction,{i.e. Catabolism/Anabolism} for "Digestion"..."Circulation"..."Metabolism"...and "Excretion"... in unicellular organisms...but in higher forms of life..{such as humans} who have trillions of cells...Does not the brain's neural-electrical functions, play some sort of role, as a neural-electrical/Bio-chemical-electric stimulator, for this process..? If so ...Which part of the brain's funtion controls this process...?
...Does the created kinetic bioenergy by this process not but classify as Chi?

And...Do you think that it is possible, for the brain to "pin point", or "lead", that biokinetic energy,at a conscience level,.. by neural-electrical stimulation, of the nervous system?
To increase the energy output generated for aggressive sports, and fighting...?

Just a shot in the dark, but I had to try...LONG LIVE THE BEER,er'I MEAN, THE CHI BELLY...
Thanks

WXW

This isn't that mysterious. Of course the only place breathing can take place is the lungs. These other descriptions, toe breathing, ass breathing, whatever are just ways to use the intention to affect and manipulate areas of the body previously not under concious control