Hi Tim,
What do you think of this concept of reverse vectors, an impressive concept or some serious exaggeration and faking, especially the video clips?

http://www.imperialtaichi.com/whatisit.htm

Different teachers have different ways of explaining things.

It's difficult to tell anything from video "demonstrations," no matter which art is demonstrated, without actually sparring with someone.

Hi Tim,
Although I like the idea of 'internal power', it seems hard to understand from a physics point of view as we know that , from Newton's law a body will continue at rest or in the direction it is already moving in unless acted upon by an external force.There is also inertia to overcome as well.
So it seems difficult to comprehend "reversing" a vector of force in almost the "opposite" direction with little force. And the transfer of force, the agent being two fingers seems exaggerated since unless they are very strong then they will likely buckle under the load required to counteract a say 70 kg body acted upon by gravity, and the already momentum or force against which the guy needs to exert "a force to reverse the vector".
Maybe some "cooperation" is necessary from the opponent, but hard to tell (by me from looking) sometimes.
Do you think it is possible to "effortlessly" reverse a force vector with 2 fingers? A possible alternative explanation?

Thanks.

Toddy,

I think you have already answered your own question.

Hello Toddy and Tim,

Yes, the 2 finger demonstration required some coorporation. It is to illustrate the REV method when the situation is ideal. There are some clips on my site where I specified coorporation is needed, and some where there is little or no coorporation.

In real fights, the REV still applies. Look up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTCcIBdtbD4

for a less coorporative demonstration.

Cheers,
John, Imperial Tai Chi

p.s. Tim, I enjoy reading your articles. Great stuff.

Dr. John, I'm a big fan of your music... But you should have someone show you a real application for 'Single Wimp' (frequently called 'Single Whip'), although, you pushing that geriatric guy's fist is an entertaining interpretation.

John,

Thanks for the clarification.

Tim

I think that was not the right link. Was that suppose to be noncooperative?

Chris,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZEx3KZ5Wio&mode=related&search=

Just more evidence that one man's "uncooperative" is another's "you've got to be kidding me."

Go to a reputable Judo, BJJ or shuai jiao school, bring a friend with a video camera.People may think its odd, but most will have no problem with someone videotaping sparring in any of these kinds of schools, especially if you are taping yourself.

Put on a white belt, and then when it comes time for randori or grappling, do this stuff to your opponents.

Even better, do it to the black belts!!

No disrespect is intended, but if you are going to make claims about doing stuff in real fights, show real fights. The closest we can come in training is against competitive resistance.

I don't even mean competition, but regular sparring at a club.

Here are the locations of various BJJ schools in Sydney/NSW:

http://www.bjj.com.au/clubs_nsw.html

And Judo:

http://www.budokan-judo-club.com/

Can't seem to find any shuai jiao in Sydney.


Or even Kyokushin karate during sparring:

http://www.ifk-australia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=42&Itemid =63

Reverse vector!?

If you guys are talking about the imperial; traiji sight with the guy with his fingers on the other guys forehead and he just falls over??
you got to be f-ing kidding me!. Why doesn't he just take his fingers of the guys head? What a load of crap - even if the situation is "ideal" then it's just ideal crap. the guys trying paint a turd.

Of course its possible to reverse vector, by why would you want to?

Still mad as all hell over the imperial taiji crap, this is why taiji gets such a bad name. I usually rather say I know nothing about taiji than tell people I do a martial art. Taiji people are usually such arseclowns. Although I don't agree with everything coming from the cartmell camp, from what I've read in his books and inteviews (in the neijiquan book), you The cartmell students are in really good hands. Still, you cartmell students should be able to spot this rubbish from a mile, and I think Tim knows that its crap, its just that he's being nice.

It might be said that reverse vector forehead poking is too profound for the likes of me, and to that I say, try and poke a 250 pound bikie in the forehead - see how far that gets you.

Just saw the Reverse vector single whip (read wimp - tx Bob) as given in Dr fung's you tube reference... That's pretty funny. I wonder what the guy does when he's in bed with a chick... can he make her fly of his knob?

alienpig,

Everyone has their own "beliefs."

Ask me and I'll tell you what mine are. But crusading takes time away from me getting better at what I do.

Feel me?

Well put Tim. Years ahead of most not only in teaching, but attitude. I have a lot to learn from you teacher!
Cheers
Jake

nothing wrong with calling a spade a "spade"

nothing wrong with calling a spade a "spade"

spades don't have ears.
There's nothing wrong with calling a dog with no legs, but he wont come to you.

Fine. It is perfectly OK that people disagree with me.

If I ever had to critisize anyone (and I rarely do), I always try to state things objectively and scientifically. The use of obscene language and personal attacks only shows lack of self respect and lack of intelligence.

I would openly invite anyone who wants to cross hands with me and feel what is going on. As long as you come with an open mind, I will be more than happy to make some new friends.

Cheers,
John

Hello Kit,

If you read my post, I stated that the clip on the youtube.com is "less coorporative". I did not say it was real fight. I just say that REV can be used in real fights.

If it was for real, I would be striking those points with full force. But I would not have many friends left.

Cheers,
John

Gee sorry mate, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings. But if you have stated it (REV) in scientific and objective way, then surely, as with all good science, you would have tested it empirically. Playing little games with your students is a less than rigorous test. And whilst in all seriousness your attitude is admirable, (and mine less so) your understanding leaves much to be desired. As I understand it, a reverse energy vectoring, requires that you either meet an opponent's vector directly with your own in orde to reverse it - which would be force on force. Or "absorb" an opponents vector, and then redirect your own energy along that vector, in the latter case, your opponent (assuming there not a complete idiot) will just just hit you whilst you busy absorbing vectors.

A more general point, quoting a few equations does not of itself justify a thesis, the thing ultimately must be vindicated outside laboratory conditions, that is, the real world. And really isn't that what good science is about - going out in the world and "rubbing your nose in it" its not me you have to worry about "crossing arms" with, I far to much of a pussycat to want to injure someone to prove a point, its the three guys in backally that we'll ultimately test the REV method.

Dr John, you stated, and I quote:

"In real fights, the REV still applies. Look up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTCcIBdtbD4

for a less coorporative demonstration.

Cheers,
John, Imperial Tai Chi "

These comments are linked together. Your obvious implication is that you believe that this video, in demonstrating a "less cooperative" partner, is indicative in some way of the dynamics of a real fight.

It is not. What is shown is either cooperative training, or a student who is conditioned to falling for whatever it may be his teacher does to him, whether he is aware of it or not.

I tend to agree with Tim that "crusading" against this kind of thing is a waste of time, akin to attempting to convert someone from one religion to another, because it is very much tied to a belief system, based on faith in something regardless of or even despite lack of real proof.

The issue I take is that you brought up "real fights." I confess, I don't know much about high level martial arts. But I do know more than most martial artists, including revered "masters," about real fights.

Placing your clip in any way within the context of a real fight is one of two things:

1) Dishonest - which I have no indication that you are...

or


2) Misguided

Until you show additional video against legitimately non-cooperative opponents, and at this point I would have to add, someone who is not one of your students, I can only surmise that you are #2.

You may consider this too blunt for your sensibilities, overly harsh, and very judgemental. The problem is, hundreds if not thousands of people may look at this, accept your position as a martial arts teacher, and make the wrong, and potentially for them very dangerous, assumption that what you are showing is "real," because they have no frame of reference to evaluate your claims. They even have your own words to point them to that assumption.

It's not "real," in terms of what one can expect from a committed, aggressive attacker. Just like the overwhelming majority of aikido and aikijujutsu video you see is not "real," the systema you see on line is not "real," and so much more (here come the flames!!)

It panders to people seeking a false sense of security, or have no concept of what is "real," and don't listen when "reality" is explained to them.

Sorry if this criticism is too direct. But it is, in the end, very "real."

Whatever.

As Tim mentioned, it is hard to tell until you cross hands with someone. As I OPENLY invite people to cross hands with me, there is no point having pitiful argument with people who haven't even met me.

Please do not lecture me on giving people false sense of security. You do not even know what I teach my students. I drill my students in using their fists, elbow and knee strikes. I also teach them how to take punches. I told them if you do not go home with bruises you are not training hard enough. I worked in hospital emergency departments before. I work on broken teeth and broken jaws from fights before. I have seen enough broken bodies to know about the reality of "real fights". I don't claim to be the best, but I have total faith in the effectiveness of my techniques.

The only reason I started posting on this forum was just to clarify to Tim and Toddy that some of the demonstrations requires cooporations. I have done so already. Not going to waste anymore time.

Sorry, please disregard the previous post, it got posted before I finished editing it...

As Tim mentioned, it is hard to tell until you cross hands with someone. As I OPENLY invite people to cross hands with me, there is no point having pitiful argument with people who haven't even met me. It is laughable when people say "I don't want to cross hands with you because I don't want to hurt you."

Please do not lecture me on giving people false sense of security. You do not even know what I teach my students. I drill my students in using their fists, elbow and knee strikes. My favourite is the elbow to the ribs and sternum, and the "seven star fist" which resembles the boxing "cross over punch". I also teach them how to take punches. I told them if you do not go home with bruises you are not training hard enough. I worked in hospital emergency departments before. I work on broken teeth and broken jaws from fights often. I have seen enough broken bodies to know about the reality of "real fights".

As one of my private students says (who is a Karate Black belt and a leading Karate instructor in Sydney), every martial art has its good and bad. He is learning the REV as he finds it useful, and that he can apply it with his other techniques. I would not want to get into a real fight with him because he is a damn good fighter, especially if he uses the REV techniques together with his other techniques. Of course, it is STUPID to even suggest that JUST with REV alone you can defeat anyone; but if you look at the Ban Lan Qui demo, be open minded enough to see where I am trapping the student's arm and turning and exposing his side ribs and neck, one has to be blind not to see that the method can be used to issue successive strikes to the neck, throat, and the floating ribs. Go watch a good Sumo match and see how Asashoryu favors striking or manipulating the opponent's armpit and does spiral shaped throws. I don't claim to be the best, but I have total faith in the effectiveness of my techniques.

The only reason I started posting on this forum was just to clarify to Tim and Toddy that some of the demonstrations requires cooporations. I have done so already. Not going to say anymore.

Exactly - FAITH.

But I think my "religion" is different than yours.