I'm not a student of Mr. Cartmell's, but I admire the Shen Wu system a lot. I've read where many of the old-time Chinese masters emphasized "martial virtue" in their teaching. I'm thinking of people like Zhang Zhao Dong and Sun Lu Tang. Sun Xi Kun included the word "virtue" in the name of his school in Tianjin.

Mr. Cartmell, what does/did the term "wu de" mean to those masters? What place (if any) does "wu de" have in the Shen Wu school?

"Wu De" literally means "martial virtue." The underlying meaning is that the skills acquired in training should never be used to take advantage of or bully others. The concept is the basis of the idea of only using martial skills to protect oneself or others from danger, and is the origin of the popular "Karate has no first strike" slogan. As to what it really meant to the old masters, I can't say.

Thank you for your reply.

Martial morality has always been a required discipline in Chinese martial arts. Before you learn any martial techniques, you should first understand this subject.
In Chinese martial arts society, it is well known that a student's success is not determined by external appearance, nor by how strong or weak that person is, but rather by the student's way of thinking and morality. Chinese martial artists have a saying: "A student will spend three years looking for a good teacher, and a teacher will test a student for three years." A wise student real?izes that it is better to spend several years looking for a good teacher than to spend the time learning from a mediocre one. A good teacher will lead you to the right path, and will help you to build a strong foundation for your future training. A teacher who is not qualified, however, will not help you build a strong foundation, and may even teach you many bad habits. In addition, good teachers will always set a good example for their students with their spiritual and moral virtue. Good martial arts teachers do not teach only martial techniques, they also teach a way of life.
When people have just begun their studies, they are usually enthusiastic and sincere, and they are willing to accept discipline and observe proper manners. However, as time passes, you gradually get to see what they are really like, and sometimes it's quite different from how they acted in the beginning. Because of this, teachers frequently spend at least three years watching and testing students before they decide whether they can trust them and pass on to them the secrets of their style. This was especially so in ancient times when martial arts were used in wars, and fighting techniques were kept secret.
Martial Morality is called "Wude." Teachers have long considered Wude to be the most important criterion for judging students, and they have made it the most important part of the training in the traditional Chinese martial arts.
Wude includes two aspects: the morality of deed and the morality of mind. Morality of deed includes: Humility, Respect, Righteousness, Trust, and Loyalty. Morality of mind consists of: Will, Endurance, Perseverance, Patience, and Courage. Traditionally, only those students who had cultivated these standards of morality were considered to be worthy of teaching. The book The Essence of Shaolin White Crane by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming. explains these moralities in greater detail.
Of the two aspects of morality, the morality of deed is more important. The reason for this is very simple. Morality of deed concerns the student's relationship with master and classmates, other martial artists, and the general public. Students who are not moral in their actions are not worthy of being taught, since they cannot be trusted or even respected. Furthermore, without morality of deed, they may abuse the art and use their fighting ability to harm innocent people. Therefore, masters will normally watch their students carefully for a long time until they are sure that the students have matched their standards of morality of deed before letting them start serious training.
Morality of mind is for self-cultivation which is required to reach the final goal of training. The Chinese believe that we have two minds, an "Emotional mind" (Xin ) and a "Wisdom mind" (Yi). Usually, when a person fails in something it is because the emotional mind has dominated their thinking. The elements in the morality of mind are the keys to training, and they lead the student to the stage where the wisdom mind can dominate. This self-cultivation and discipline should be the goal of any martial arts training philosophy.

Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming

Nice marketing ploy! Anytime someone can't do anything they play the ethic or morality card.

You bunch of wookies! Hey, let's write about 20 books that all say the same thing! Tai Chi Chin Na, that's really not Tai Chi Chin Na but White Crane Chin Na... Come on!!!

Let's make up our own way to romanize. Hey, I'm Chinese! Hey, I'm an authority!!!

"There's only one Betty, Big Balled Betty!"

Big Balled Betty Rocks!!!

You go girl.
Keep up the excellent posts.

No marketing ploy,...i was contributing to a post with some useful and relevent information. I have nothing to do with the author's business.

"Anytime someone can't do anything they play the ethic or morality card. You bunch of wookies! Hey, let's write about 20 books that all say the same thing! Tai Chi Chin Na, that's really not Tai Chi Chin Na but White Crane Chin Na... Come on!!! Let's make up our own way to romanize. Hey, I'm Chinese! Hey, I'm an authority!!! "


explain please, 'wookie'.


respect,

Dan.

Wookie = Chewabaka (from Star Wars)

Hello All,
I'm a big fan of Tim and again thank him for sharing his knowledge with the rest of us.
Didn't know you were here until yesterday...will sit by the side, monitor and contribute when I think I won't waste anybody's time.
RickU

Hey Rick,
Good to hear from you. I hope all is well.
Tim

Hi Tim,
Thanks for asking...and yes, I went through my checkup in September and am A.O.K.
Still trying to find a publisher for the book, thanks again for all your efforts. More to tell you in this vein but don't think this is the forum.
Again, congrats on the site and I look forward to contributing once I get the lay of the land.
Rick

http://www.soundanalarm.com/Newsletters/MartialArts1.htm

Betcha didn't know you all are sinners did ya?

that's a bet you'd lose.

Hey j---------...,
Bob #2 is correct!

FOR THE READERS OF http://www.soundanalarm.com/Newsletters/MartialArts1.htm ,
The so-called Christians at the above website, if they are Christian at all, are ignorant -- they've not yet read the Gospel (the Good-News Message) IN CONTEXT. They show a lack of knowledge. It's obvious to me that they didn't research the Greek texts (as common Greek was the language that the New Contract was written in). PLEASE, DON'T BE FOOLED BY THEIR RHETORIC! They may mean well, but that just doesn't cut the muster.
For instance, the "turn your other cheek" idea is for when your BROTHER (in Jesus) strikes you, not for when your mortal enemy is about to plunge a dagger into your chest. And "love your enemy" never meant don't defend yourself! The God has always allowed His own to defend themselves.
Jesus' last -- pre-cruxifiction, resurrection & ascension -- commandment to his disciples was to buy a long knife or short sword (a defensive weapon for personal, up-close combat, as opposed to a very large sword used for offensive, piched battles) -- specifically for those who don't ALREADY have one to sell their clothing to get one! He (Jesus) then explained their need for defense (as He wasn't going to be around to personally protect their physical bodies as He had been doing up to that point because He was about to suffer the death penalty). The disciples were still not understanding at that time & offered Jesus two swords or knives (& Jesus essentially said OY-VEY! -- That's enough!).
Jesus chewed out Peter for using his sword right after that because Peter was trying to stop -- with his sword -- the very event that was to free all those who trust the God Almighty at His Word: the sacrifice of His only fathered Son, Jesus (who -- no thanks to Peter -- died for OUR falling short of the mark of the God's standard of perfection: for past, present, & future short fallings). That's why Jesus then said if you live by the sword, then you will die by the sword (because a sword doesn't have any power to save eternally, but rather we live eternally or die by the Word of the God Almighty: by Jesus, by way of His sacrifice, which Peter was trying to screw up in his ignorance). You can use a sword for self-defense of your present physical body (& for those you love) & not die by the sword -- if you trust our Lord (note that Peter's act wasn't one of trusting God -- for Jesus had repeatedly told His disciples that He must be captured & then killed; and Peter -- still not understanding -- was trying to prevent His capture!). So we live (eternally) due to the sacrifice of Jesus; a sacrifice that would never have happened had Peter got his way (as he was thinking -- in distrust/ignorance -- at the time).
Note: not all are saved; & those saved aren't saved by any thing that they DO (it's all GRACE -- a saving gift given to some; so some are saved, & most aren't). Why? 'Cause the God has said so (through His prophets) -- if for no other reason. The God is always the same (He's not two-faced): what He says is, is (whether folks like Mr. Clinton understand what is is or not).
I leave this note with a quote from the King James Version of the Bible (one version those misguided "Christians" tend to respect -- inspite of its occassional errors) -- & a thought: a quote from a song (these days numbered #144) of King David -- a man after the God's own heart:

"Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight..."

WHAT? DOES ANYONE THINK THAT THE GOD ALMIGHTY IS UNABLE TO TEACH OUR HANDS TO WAR & OUR FINGERS TO FIGHT THROUGH MEN SUCH AS TIM CARTMELL? Here's a clue: GOD IS ABLE!

HOW DO YOU LOVE AN ENEMY?

One way is BY SHOWING THEM MERCY when you are able to (but don't necessarily put yourself at risk to do so -- although you can if your love for them is that strong) -- just as the God sends his rain & shine on all those that He hates as well as all those He loves. Essentially, treat (love) all as you yourself would like to be treated (loved); of course you'll fall short of the mark (& that's why there's the God's grace).

oh Mike-
It's rants like that that scare folks away from religion.

Actually he did a good job of presenting the Gospel in a nutshell, albeit the topic here certainly has changed. There is nothing wrong with being bold about what you believe, but there is a time and place for everything. Stating what your position is doesn't scare people away from religion. Liking what we do as "sinners" and not wanting to change is more likely the reason people avoid religion. Although I don't think Mike is talking about religion as much as personal relationship, I do think we have gotten off track here.

I agree.

Back to "Martial Virtue". I whole-heartedly
support the notion of beating the hell out of
a student to instill "Martial Virtue". There
is a code of conduct that has to be maintained
or else-...non-maintained conductory codes remain
prevenlent in this instance.

Once a student was over 20 minutes late for class
and was wearing tube socks that did not match.
If she hadn't been so haughty in her response to
my questioning she wouldn't have gotten it so bad.

After that, students began showing up early for class.

I was with this lady preacher the other night. She was a real Hottie, although she did have too much makeup on. Anyway, we're drinkin' our sacrifical wine and stuff and she's tryin to convert me or something. She says I'm a sinner because I'm an expert in cage, pit, submission, death kumite NHB fighting. She says that I know about those false religions and by beatin the hell out of the people that I'm some kind of bad guy. Well F*** her, I think to myself. Any, we soak back more wine and she starts talkin about forgiveness. Anyway, the conversation turns to the subject of why fighting and I should turn up my cheek. Well, F*** that, I don't give up my back for nothing.

In the end, I convince her to forgive me and for her to turn her cheek. After a little more wine, she turns her back and Betty takes it. She was putty in Betty's hands. The way that preacher lady performed in the rack, you'd think she was a devil worshipper! Here I was thinkin Sodomy was a sin.

"There's only one Betty, Big Balled Betty!"