Hi, this is a question for Mr Cartmell as well as anyone else who has spent time in Taiwan.

I am trying to trace the origins of a little-known style that is being taught in the USA as "Splashing Hands". I think the Chinese name may be "San Soo" but I'm not sure if it is the same as Jimmy H. Woo's style of the same name.

According to legend, the style was developed in the 1700s by Shaolin Temple guards, but how true this I really wouldn't like to say!

The style was brought to the USA in the 1950s by a marine called Haumea Lefiti. He said that he learned in Taiwan from a Nationalist general who brought it from the Mainland.

Here is some info on the style:
http://www.kungfupower.com/splashinghands.html

Does anyone know if this style exists anywhere in Taiwan (or even Mainland China) anymore? Is it totally extinct there now?

Below I have included some clips of techniques and a form. Does anyone recognise the style? Does it look like it is a genuine Shaolin (or Shaolin-derived) system?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NQ1l5fAuqk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxwJCCzyTW8

Splashing Hands has no connection with the Kung Fu San Soo of Jummy H. Woo.

Thanks. I suspected as much but I wasn't totally sure. I have seen other spellings, including San Shou and Zan Shou. There is a website that has the Chinese characters. Would it help if I could find them?

Does the footage I posted look like anything you may have encountered in Taiwan? They have a very unique kind of shuffling footwork and also a distinctive way of slapping parts of their own body while striking.

lol, "lao tzu" james w. mc.niel.

i just realized that i bought a random xing yi book by him, the stuff isnt half bad either...but isnt lao tzu a chinese figurehead?

"According to legend..."

This already told you everything you need to know about the so-called "origins" of this art.

Hi,
My names Chris Lomas and I own a Hsing I/Bagua school in Manchester U.K. which uses this style as its base.

Huame Lefiti trained in Taiwan in the 1950s. That he turned up at Ark Wongs Kwoon already vered in the art of Splashing Hands can be verified by Ark Wongs Heir Seeming Ma (of the Ng Ga Kuen system). Because pheonetically the name sounds so similar to San Soo we tend to use the english to avoid confusion, which then leads people to say we made it up as it doesn't have a chinese name. Sometimes you can't 'win'.

Sometimes people tend to forget that even relatively 'open door' systems have been lost or maginalised due to the shifting landscapes of MA, this is just as true in Taiwan as anywhere else (For example in the 80s there were over 200 practisioners of Zimen in Taiwan, how many are left now?).

I have lived most of my Life in Lancashire and have yet to see any Catch-As-Catch-Can wrestling, does that mean it never existed here? Lol.

If anyone has any questions about this system I would be happy to tell you what I know,
Best Regards
Chris

PS Lau Tzu is, I presume, a webmasters error and should, of course, be Laoshi/Laoshr.

PS Dave is right about the origin myth, like most other Kung Fu origin myths,it is impossible to verify. Use it as a story that encompasis the aims and objectives of the system in a inspiring way rather then as any sort of factual account.
Best
Chris

If I remember correctly "Lau Tzu" is just a title and means roughly "Great Master"

The little of James McNeil's stuff I have seen looks okay. Anyone been to his retreat?

it means old master.

and he is a historic/mythological figure of chinese history.

if james w. mcniel is lao tzu, then i am fu hsi...

i dont think the guy is good enough to be called "lao tzu", i mean, his book was alright and well worth the 12.95 i paid for it. (thats about it)...

the guy should stick with "sifu"

Like I said on a previous forum - its Laoshi (= 'Old Teacher') that is being referred to (though misspelt by a webmaster)not Lau Tzu.

He is 67. That is old. He teaches. Old teacher is kind of accurate, no?

As some of his students are using the title 'Sifu' we (not himself) persuaded him to take an alternate title. He refused master and Grand Master (though as a direct lineage holder, sometimes exclusively, several times over it is technically the correct title) as he felt this was too ostentasious and says he is still learning. We asked him what he reffered to his teachers as and it was generally Laoshi, so that is the title we use. Understand now?
best
Chris

What is wrong with Mr.? It is always the silly white guys pulling this ••••!
Jake

Why not call him by his name?
All the sextsgenarians I know like being called by their first name (it makes them feel young and included)

Bob#2

Why not call him by his name?
All the sextsgenarians I know like being called by their first name (it makes them feel young and included)

Bob#2

Why not use his first name?
All the sextagenarians I know prefer being called by first name (it makes them feel young and included)

Why not use his first name?
All the sextagenarians I know prefer being called by first name (it makes them feel young and included)

Why not use his first name?
All the sextagenarians I know prefer being called by first name (it makes them feel young and included)

sorry about the duplicate posts I was trying to use an AfricanAmericanBerry for the first time.

Yes Jake, white guys invented the term Laoshi (sigh).

Bob #2 Many people do.
Many people do.
Many people do.
Many people do.
;-)

Chris
I did not say they invented anything. White guys get all wrapped up in the ego driven need to be titled. A sense (false) of security found by requiring students to refer to them as something "higher" than the student.
Majority of the Chinese teachers I have ever met that were worth a damn never referred to themselves as anything other than "Mr." It has been my experience that it is westerners (or westernized Chinese) that perpetuate these goofy titles and what not.
And to top it off if you are going to use some monicker then at the very least use it (and spell it) properly.
Jake

Assuming Chris's potrail of the situation is accurate, then it would appear that Mr. McNeil is not asking anyone to call him by a title, but his student's wanted to use a title for him and he said this one was okay. So I don't think we have any reason to lump him in with the title-happy silly white guy group.