Tim,
I've read everything you've written so I'm familiar with your background and training here in Taiwan. But I don't recall seeing much about how Shenwu came about and evolved once you were in the States.

If you don't mind talking about it, how did you formulate Shenwu?

You arrived with lots of form based IMA systems, but ended up teaching a formless system. What were the challenges you faced in changing and presenting the material?

good question, im also interested, since tims philosophy to fighting was similar (but much betterlol) to my own even before i came across this place.

I'd also be very interested to read about the evolution of Shen Wu.

Craig

I would not agree that Shen Wu is not form based.
Dave C, a good example and questions to ask, is how long (how many movements) are Shuai Jiao forms? What art the oldest forms out there? Why were they only simple, single movements?
(Xing I - 5 element forms come to mind too)

I would argue that Tim's Power generating exercises would be classified as "forms."
Those exercises are genius. I'll give you a direct example of what happened to me this past Saturday. I was training at Sityodtong (Muai Thai) in Boston and was watching one of the trainers go over with a person how to slip a punch. The movement was exactly as one of the movements in Tim's Power generating exercises.

The question is really, if a form is a tool, what does the tool do for the student when they have to use it?

I remember when Shen Wu started to evolve and it is very interesting. Maybe someday Tim will share it, but I will not because of my friendship and loyalty to Tim.

Good training,
Joe

http://www.thestudywithin.com
http://thestudywithin.blogspot.com

I would argue that Tim and Shen Wu is constantly evolving. In the last 6 years I have dedicated myself to training under Tim I have seen him, and others, improve dramatically! That is one of the things I love about Tim, he is constantly testing himself, his art, and his understanding to further improve on his already amazing foundation.
If you guys are interested just read Tim's site. The evolution is there if you look for it!
Jake

Dave,

Here are some old post that show a bit the Shenwu evolution.

By Tim on Monday, December 17, 2001 - 05:34 pm: Edit Post
Classes start with warm up, conditioning and Nei Gong exercises. Then we practice forms. Next comes technique and sparring practice which is about a half to two thirds of the class time. Students are expected to practice forms at home, so once new movements are taught and the forms are corrected, we don't spend class time repeating forms. We utilize class time for paired training. Beginning students practice more controlled sparring drills and more advanced students practice contact sparring and throwing while wearing protective gear. We also break down the sparring training into attribute specific formats. For example, sometimes the fighters are only allowed to strike with the hands. Sometimes they are only allowed to practice throwing and locking techniques etc. We also do a fair amount of work striking pads and 'focus mitt' type training.

By Tim on Tuesday, January 08, 2002 - 06:36 pm: Edit Post
First off, thanks to Justin and Foo for describing their Four Corners drill. Actually, for those of you who are interested, there is film of Yu Hua Long doing the drill (or something like it) on the Six Harmony Ten Animal Hsing-Yi video produced by One Hand Video.

This is a very interesting topic, the sparring vs. too deadly to spar dichotomy. My students also get into this discussion with practitioners of other arts that believe they are too lethal to spar. I suppose their is no 'answer' short of no holds barred death matches, but it is important to look at the evidence we do have so that students can make an informed decision, especially students that want to prepare themselves for a real and violent confrontation.

I'll preface my comments by saying I have trained all different ways. I've studied traditional styles of martial arts in which all techniques were supposed to be potentially lethal, and which forbade sparring, as well as traditional arts which allowed contact sparring. I've also practiced several combat 'sports.'

One of the most, if not the most important aspect of success in a fight is mindset, next is experience, then physicality, finally specific technique. Without the will to fight, the greatest fighter in the world will lose to the most mediocre fighter. This is a common sense observation. It is extremely difficult (although probably not impossible) to develop a fighting mindset without some experience approximating a real fight. Like the boxers say, everyone has a plan until they get hit. If you have never been hit hard, crushed under someone's weight or been on the receiving end of a painful and unrelenting attack, how do you know how you will react? You may imagine you will respond appropriately and fight back, but you will never know for sure. Sparring will never be as intense as a real fight, but it is the closest approximation you will find within the bounds of relative safety (although you will be injured on occasion, it's an inevitability of learning to fight).

Getting hit, strangled and thrown hard by a determined and resisting opponent will condition your mind and body for the realities of a fight. Taking out your opponent with the initial attack is obviously the ultimate goal of a fight (and learning how to sucker punch is something I believe should be practiced often), but the reality is one punch knockouts almost never occur. When they do, the fighter doing the knocking out is usually always much bigger and stronger than his opponent. Despite the popular 'deadly martial arts' idea that a fight will be over in seconds with the opponent lying unconscious and broken on the floor, fights often go on for minutes, with both fighters injured as third parties pull the fighters apart.

Contact sparring and grappling are also a 'laboratory' for you to experiment with which techniques YOU can actually apply against a resisting opponent. Just because your teacher or classmates can smash bones with a blow doesn't mean you necessarily can. You will never know what you can really do unless you have really done it. You must also practice sparring in all ranges and situations (striking and wrestling both standing and on the ground).

It is not that the techniques in most martial arts won't work, all legitimate styles have potentially useful techniques. The problem is the method of training. Anyone can make a technique work against a non-resisting partner, and, of course, that is how techniques are learned. The actual execution of a technique is the easy part. The hard part is the set up and entry. The method of learning how to successfully set up and enter a technique for real cannot be learned without a non-cooperative, fully resisting partner. Because that is the situation you will be in in a real fight. In a real fight, your opponent will be doing everything he can to stop you from applying your techniques. If your method doesn't take this into account, it is not realistic. The best fighters in the world use relatively simple techniques, most often the same techniques they learned during their first few months of training. The reason they can actually apply these techniques is that they have learned to set them up against trained, resisting opponents. They have confidence because they have been successful for real.

Physicality is also extremely important in a fight. Size and strength do matter, and, especially if you are smaller than your opponent, superior endurance could save your life. Besides regular conditioning exercises for power and endurance, sparring practice will teach you how to conserve your energy and expend it when it will have the greatest effect. When the adrenaline is pumping, it is very important not to use up all your energy to no effect. Anyone who has ever been in a combat sporting event can tell you that whoever gasses first loses, no matter his or her level of skill.

Another place to look for answers is with men who have a great amount of experience in real fights (street fights). If you read the literature, men like Peyton Quinn and Geoff Thompson (who worked as bouncers in rough places, and who had the 'benefit' of hundreds of real fights) assert that contact sparring and grappling are absolutely essential to preparing martial artists for real fights. Geoff Thompson is especially interesting in that he has liscences to teach over a dozen Asian martial arts. But what he advocates practicing for real fighting ability is Western boxing (combat sport), wrestling (combat sport) and Judo (combat sport). The main focus of training in all three is non-cooperative free sparring.

In my own experience, I feel I developed more practical fighting ability from a year of Xing Yi Quan training in Taiwan (we sparred full contact on a regular basis) than years of training in other styles without non-cooperative sparring. Do I believe Xing Yi Quan is technically so superior to the other styles I studied? No, what made the difference was the method (we sparred).

Finally. I'll leave you with a real world example. Meynard is passionate about this subject because of his background in the martial arts. He spent years studying a 'traditional' martial art (with an excellent teacher) that did not allow sparring practice because of the 'deadly' nature of their techniques. When he first came to study with me we could basically strike, throw and submit him at will (sorry Meynard, the truth hurts sometimes). He has practiced very hard the last few years, and is now one of the best fighters in my school. He's done well in combat sporting events (Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and submissions grappling) as well as a street fight he got into with a gang member a few months ago (two leg kicks and a Pi Quan knocked the guy down. He had had enough and Meynard let him get up and limp away. Like Water Dragon said above, this is how most real fights end up, no reason to kill anybody).

I want to make it clear to my friends that posted above that I respect different methods of training. There is something to be learned from all drills, ancient and modern. What's important is to be honest about why you practice martial arts in the first place (for example, people who practice for health or recreationally don't need to spar) stay open minded and look at all different methods of training to see what works for you.

William,
I appreciate the response. That does show Tim's philosophy quite well and gives some hints why Shenwu evolved the way it did. Thanks.

Joe,
"Dave C, a good example and questions to ask, is how long (how many movements) are Shuai Jiao forms? What art the oldest forms out there? Why were they only simple, single movements?"

I'm not sure what you're saying. Shuai jiao forms in Taiwan are long and mostly worthless. And simple, single movements aren't forms. I think that's universally agreed upon.

Transforming a lot of material into a curriculum is a fairly complex undertaking, especially when that material needs to be adapted to a changing fighting environment like what we have today.

Shenwu seems to have gone through that evolution, which makes it unique. I'd love to hear more about it.

Dave C,

You're missing the whole point.
It's not about forms, it's about structure and principles. What Tim does is take the structure and principles and applies them to the context of the fighting application.

That's why his stuff is always evolving. Just like Jake states above.

Of course, this scares traditionalists because they can't just sit back and keep what they've done forever, they have to work hard and think/train to move forward. Too much work for them, they'd rather rub their friggin chi...

Simple as that.

Also, the crap that you state that it's universally agreed upon on the length of a form is bulls*t . Early forms of Shuai Jiao were one movement - go back and review your history. ••••, I live in the States and know that, you'd think by being "closer to the source" you'd have a real historical clue.

Get your head out of you @ss and work hard applying principles of what you learn instead of techniques with non-cooperative partners and then you get closer to Shen Wu.

You don't have to live in Taiwan to get that...

Joe

http://www.thestudywithin.com
http://thestudywithin.blogspot.com

Great post Joe! Nicely put!
Jake

Dave,

I have always been very interested in two separate yet related areas, martial arts, the most efficient methods of fighting, and body use, the best methods of developing the body for maximum efficiency (particularly as applied to martial science).

In relation to forms, I practiced set patterns of movement for many years, and I feel they were of benefit. At a certain point, I realized specific movements, especially as they pertained to "styles" were irrelevant, all productive physical training was based on underlying principles of mental and physical development. Once I had an understanding of the principles, I no longer saw the need for specific "forms" practice (as in memorizing and repeating sequences of pre-arranged movements).

On the other hand, any sequence or combination of movements could be useful if the undrelying principles were understood and adhered to. The exercises that I teach, whether learned as such, modified or created by me, all adhere to these principles. There are, of course, levels of difficulty and areas of specific focus.

A decade or so ago I became interested in figuring out (at least for myself) which movements actually form the foundation of all other movements. It occured to me that practicing more "universal" movements would lead to the greatest improvements in physicality in the shortest amount of time, and would hold the potential for continuing, virtually unlimited improvement. I also try to remain open minded and honest with myself so that I'm able to let go of the inefficient and improve.

I believe movements should be learned individually, and then the individual practitioner is free to combine them as they will. Individual practice should not be limited to a fixed number of forms, just like fighting, while involving a relatively small number of situational variables, is not limited to set patterns of movement.

Of course the "acid test" of all my training was how much it improved my physicality and abilities when sparring and competing in the various combat sports. I have been very fortunate to have had the opportunity to train with and compete against very capable fighters.

Every movement can be considered a "form," and one is "practicing" every waking moment, not just when they are moving through specific patterns they have been taught as "martial art."

Wow! Very interesting and great explanation... no wonder you get paid the big bucks, or should do at least.

Joe,
Your rudeness and ignorance aren't appreciated. I expected more for you. I came here asking a simple question and you give me nothing but nonsense.

I never said it was all about forms. I was asking how Shenwu transitioned from an initially form-based CMA style to a non-form based fushion style with BJJ. I'm interested in the evolution.

If that's too much for you to handle respectfully then kindly go away.

As for shuai jiao, you don't know as much as you think. Here in Taiwan those simple movements have been made into long forms like any other CMA system. It's gotten so bad that they don't even throw anyone for at least a year after starting the system. Instead, they do forms practice. So don't presume to lecture me on things you know ZERO about. Got it?

Dave Chesser

Tim,
Thanks for your thoughtful response.

Hi Dave,

I'm taken by surprise that you thought I was rude before, for the record I wasn't trying to be. I was a little taken back by your condescending tone.

Now, so you understand, I'll be rude...

If you step back and not pay attention to your bruised ego, you'll see that I answered exactly how and why Shen Wu evolved. Your tone of "everyone knows that..." is absolutely ridiculous. You didn't. You only reinforced my statement of what constitutes a form.

But as you state, it's not about forms...
You don't fight, so what's it about? Magical mystical powers...

As far as me going away, not a chance. I was there in the beginning and have no intentions of leaving this board.

"Here in Taiwan those simple movements have been made into long forms like any other CMA system."

"have been made" - there's your answer jack off... Some idiot strung them together and the other idiots like you don't know what they are supposed to do for you. But hey, "your master" told you to do them so you do as they will help build your chi. Get a clue - jackalope...

So, what Tim stated about every movement can be a form is the key asswipe. And guess what, just like those old Shuai Jiao forms...Oh yeah, those aren't real forms the old ones, there not done in a long string soe we don't remember why they are of benefit...
He just gave you a "Chinese secret." Don't be a fruit fly and use it. Oh yeah, just because they do stuff on Taiwan now doesn't mean that it is "right."

If you don't cry about my ignorance and my rudeness and read through the post, you'll find some very important keys to help you.

So, it's up to you chicken little, want to cry and whine some more or look at it objectively and get something out of it...

I sincerely wish you the best in you study (truly)

Joe

http://www.thestudywithin.com
http://thestudywithin.blogspot.com

Look •••••••, you got a problem with me then buy and plane ticket and come get you some. Otherwise, just shut the •••• up.

Dave
That is the greatest response!! Have not heard that one in 20 years!

you read braille?

•••• •••• •••• •••• ••••

Dave C,

I actually don't have a problem with you. I'm serious. I think your original question was a good one. I was there when Tim started the evolution. It was really interesting how things unfolded.

I have to thank you too. I've never been called out to go have way around the world to get in a fight. I'm flattered. However, next time I do go to Taiwan, I wouldn't mind meeting you and having tea and stinky tofu. It's a lot better than punching each other in the face. However, if still at that time you want to punch me in the face, as the Brazilians say, then "let's fight my friend." I like to fight. No big whoop to me.

I sincerely do wish you good training.

Remember, it's about learning about yourself. I learned something about me, I hope that you learned something about you.

Joe

http://www.thestudywithin.com
http://thestudywithin.blogspot.com

e-mail communication can be tricky at times, we might think we are being attacked when it is not the case. I was kind surprise when the %$^&*# started, lets try to keep it civil until there is really no doubt we need to start &*^&^$%$ each other. Some ppl have the good luck to start training with someone like Tim and others like myself go through a lot of BS before finding a teacher who is not all metaphysical/mysterious about the real applications of a given system and is willing to teach it. Peace

I agree with William. Best not to read too much between the lines. It started off as an interesting thread.