Is it true (aboutDong Hai Chuan)?

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Is it true (aboutDong Hai Chuan)?
   By Blakeism (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 06:31 pm: Edit Post

Is it true that Dong Hai Chuan was an ex pimp, who knocked out Yin Fu's teeth as a demonstration. And who became an eunuch to escape persecution?

   By Brad Bauman (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 12:19 am: Edit Post

ex pimp?!

   By Tim on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 12:12 pm: Edit Post

No, no and no.

Dong may have gotten into some trouble which promted him to live on Jiu Hua Shan with the Daoist for several years.

He wasn't a eunich. He taught at the residence of a prince named Su. Eunichs served in the Forbidden City.

   By Maciej (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, May 13, 2003 - 10:24 pm: Edit Post

Well acording to this article he was an eunich:

   By Mike Taylor on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 02:07 am: Edit Post


I'd be really cautious of martial-art "histories" on the Internet. I did a lot of surfing & reading of such only to have it "hurt me widdo ol' head" -- because there were multiple (conflicting) "histories" for each art I "researched."

It turned out to be a waste of my time [beyond this lesson that it taught me: anyone can write anything on their website (whether true or false) & present it as history].

Surfer/reader be wary.

   By robT (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 07:34 am: Edit Post

I believe the tomb stone has a phrase along the lines of:

"entered service pretending to be a eunach"

note the word pretending. It was mentioned in PKJ, along with decent discussion about physiological effects of such an "operation" and comparing with what we little we know of Dong's physical stature.


   By pebbleonthewater (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 11:07 am: Edit Post

Why would anyone named Dong become a eunich? Seems to me he'd be a pimp.

   By Tim on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 05:56 pm: Edit Post

Good point. You should write an article.

I've heard the eunich theory before as well. It is discounted by most martial historians.

Eunichs (from the absence of testosterone, a side effect of losing your nuts) lose most of their muscle tone and size. They end up weak and effeminate in stature.

Dong Haichuan was estimated to be close to 100 kilos (220 lbs.) Unless he was getting hormone replacement therapy, he most likely still had a pair.

   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 07:10 pm: Edit Post

well, according to that article he was a eunich!

   By Bob (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 11:03 pm: Edit Post

Please let me add another myth to the story of sorts. Dong Haichuan was not a eunich but he had the ability to contract his testicles and draw them in. In this way he was able to fool whoever was in charge that he was a eunich. Doesn't make sense if he was not employed in the Forbidden City but that is the story.

I forget the name of this testicular training and at one of the Great Lakes Tournaments in Ohio, there was a guy who demonstrated his qi gong training of this type. He had a guy kick him there a couple of times, hard. I don't know. It may have been a martial arts parlor trick.

However, there may be some truth to testicular contracting ability (not about Dong Haichuan). In baji there is a technique in da baji form where you strike a certain way above the pubic area to get the testicles to drop and then there is a back of hand strike that follows.

   By Bob #2 on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 12:08 am: Edit Post

why on earth would you want to get testicles to drop out if they were 'in'?

I mean, isn't it excessive to attack an opponent's groin- but if you DID and they retracted their testicles- then,-wouldn't trying to free your opponents testicles(regardless of how manly the Testicular Exctraction Strike looks) be crossing into certain other aspects of life that most scrappy men would want to avoid?

No wonder the back hand follows. I'd back hand you too.

   By Miro (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 01:20 am: Edit Post

I thought that if you're an eunich you not only lose your nuts but your wang along with them?

   By Mingmen on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 03:33 am: Edit Post

That's right Miro? I lost my balls 14 years ago to marriage but she let me keep the old trouser trout as a remembrance. The eunuch has no dick!

   By Michael Andre Babin on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 10:54 am: Edit Post

I don't want to prick anyone's sensibilities on the subject of eunuchs ... but the history of this kind of stupidity is quite fascinating. Many cultures both Western (Italian "castrati" opera singers as recently as the 20th Century) and Oriental eunuchs (of harem fame) have used castration in different forms for different cultural ends.

Suffice it to say, that there were different forms of castration used to produce different kinds of eunuchs: one method involved removing the penis surgically (a straw was inserted into the stump during the surgical process to keep the urethra from closing during the healing process). If the person survived the surgery, his hormones and physical appearance would remain intact. The other methods involved crushing the testicles or removing them surgically and this would affect hormonal production and physique.

All methods had a high death-rate and it should tell you something about human nature and desperation, that there were still volunteers for this kind of procedure as it was the only way to ensure attaining some positions in government service.

I have no idea what, if anything, was done to Dong Hai-chuan and, if half the stories are true about his martial abilities, even if it was possible, I wouldn't want to stick my hand down in his pants to investigate the state of his "bits & pieces".

   By Eric Von Eunich (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 01:49 pm: Edit Post

If you go to some of the historical sites, you can find pictures of eunichs. The ones I saw had fully intact penises. I think they were on a University of Colombia historical site.

The machine they used was like the match boxes you slide open and closed. Slide open and there was an area to place the testicles which hung down below the blade surface. then the blade was slid back into place, cutting the scrotum and dropping the testicles. Like a side ways gulliotine. They were immediately wrapped. Many died of infection.

According to one historian, those that lived, often had reoccurring infections and emitted a horrible odor and thus they came to be known as stinking eunichs.

They were responsible for many of temple constructions throughout China and some controlled a great deal of resources for the emperor. Often mean and ill-tempered, they hoarded agriculture resources by controlling and managing the Emperor's system of taxation.

I don't think Dong Haichuan was even close to being a eunich. Maybe a rumor started by eunichs since in the one tale, Yin Fu taught eunichs.

Since Yin Fu guarded the Empress CiXi, it would seem he would more likely be a eunich and no one every has come up with that story so my bet is the eunich stuff is all bull.

PS Of course its not my real name--do I look like a match soaked in gasoline?

   By Kenneth Sohl on Thursday, May 15, 2003 - 08:22 pm: Edit Post


   By The Wong (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 01:13 am: Edit Post

Just the beans, not the sausage?

   By SysOp on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 03:34 am: Edit Post

Thread has been closed