hello all.
I am posting this in the hopes I can get some
good advice...
I got interested in martial arts at 24 or so,
had a background in yoga, and started looking
into the neijia stuff. Found a couple of books
on pa kua that made oodles of sense, and
managed to start training with a student of
a name teacher (I'm not mentioning names,
I don't want to start a name-calling contest)
who is generally thought to be one of the
best teachers of pa kua on the eastern seaboard.
3 years later (and admittedly I haven't been
the best student for training consistently)
I was not one iota better at fighting than
when I started (well possibly, but not so's
you would notice..).
I had some personal issues to resolve and
halted training to take care of them. It's
several hours to the nearest class, so I figured
I'd do some hard thinking about what I was
doing with my spare time and money.
I decided maybe I should take all the head
knowledge I'd gained about martial arts and
find something that at least would let me
fight while I walked the circle for a few
decades (that sounds really pathetic eh?).
So I found a traditional arnis class and
started training.
I think I figured it out then. Plain and
simple... I wasn't getting hit. Basically not
at all.
I'm getting 400% more training time at less
than 3/4 of the price.. and it's murderously
effective. I'm getting hit.. and suddenly
all the speed, timing, evasion.. it's all
kicking in. Valuable skills, and no bs.
You go and fight and train to fight.

So now I have to figure out what to do about
the bagua I love.
It's obvious the "system" is good, and the
teacher is good, but the problem is I'm not
getting hit. It's become obvious to me that
the best way to motivate myself to train is
to know I will get my butt thrashed if I don't.
It's rather nice actually.
I'd like to hear what the folks here think of
the following suggestions...
1. If I am not going to be fighting mainly with
my bagua.. then what does it matter if I am
doing bad bagua (i.e. without the expensive
corrections from the bagua teacher)?
2. If I am having to teach myself to fight
using the bagua exercises outside of the
teacher's eye then how will I ever learn to fight
with my bagua "properly"? If so what am I
paying for?
3. Why not then take what bagua drills I have
(mainly basics I can easily use in my arnis),
and the ch'i kung and make it my solo practice
and be an arnisador whose really fluid and
flexible?
I don't know how to approach this.. "Sifu I
can't see throwing down 2 gees a year
unless I'm getting some bruises.. I can walk
the circle for meditation for free".. seems
rather crass.. and I'm dreading broaching
the subject.
I would appreciate any feedback on this anyone
would care to share....

regards,
Phil

To my mind, you've stated one of the main issues as to why most modern internal stylists wouldn't have much hope in using their art for self-defense against an experienced aggressor, much less one who also had some technical skills in fighting.

The other side of the dilemna is that too much fighting is hard on the body, past a certain age, and not necessarily good for the soul (if I can risk being labelled a "chi-hugger" by saying-so here).

So what is the answer? Unfortunately, there is none that will make everyone happy.

In my approach to teaching pa-kua (and I only have a few long-term students in that art); my approach is to tell the students that as they get better at the body mechanics and the tactics that they will have to learn to take some impact to the front of the torso. We use boxing gloves and a variety of training methods that I have worked-out over the years. The goal of this is to teach the participant that being hit isn't always as scary as it sounds -- if you know what you are doing -- and that if you can't maintain your balance (on all levels) while being hit that you still have a way to go in terms of applying what you have learned in self-defense terms.

I also tell my students that "while it is better to give than to receive" (I read that somewhere!); you're only fooling yourself about your fighting potential if there is never any body contact of any kind in your martial arts career. I have found over the years that the famous and "not-so-famous" internal experts who I have met who really impressed me as to their ability to relate their internal training to more combative scenarios had always had either a background in which they did a lot of real fighting as young men or that they had a background in either Chinese or Western wrestling and/or judo and/or western boxing.

I don't think that pa-kua training should only be geared to combative "realism" -- life is too short to spend your time just fighting -- but realistic training for intermediate/advanced levels of students should include real (though controlled) contact while training to have any hope of making their techniques and understanding of their art relative to self-defense.

Anonymous
It sounds like you have already answered your own questions.

If you feel you have learned enough Bagua to practice the "health aspects" on your own, why pay alot of money for unnecessary lessons?

If the Arnis is teaching you how to fight and you are getting valuable contact training, why not just practice the Arnis?

Michael,
you write

<The other side of the dilemna is that too much fighting
is hard on the body, past a certain age, and not necessarily
good for the soul (if I can risk being labelled a "chi-hugger"
by saying-so here). >
To this I would have to say that I'm under 30, I don't
have any pre-existing injuries etc. As for "good for the soul"
one of the refreshing things about the filipino material was
the lack of moralizing. No offense.


< I have found over the years that the famous and
"not-so-famous" internal experts who I have met who really
impressed me as to their ability to relate their internal training
to more combative scenarios had always had either a background
in which they did a lot of real fighting as young men or that they
had a background in either Chinese or Western wrestling and/or
judo and/or western boxing. >>
This is certainly consistent with my limited (!) experience.


<I don't think that pa-kua training should only be geared to
combative "realism" -- life is too short to spend your time just
fighting -- but realistic training for intermediate/advanced levels
of students should include real (though controlled) contact while
training to have any hope of making their techniques and understanding
of their art relative to self-defense.>
I can't imagine why pa kua training would be worth doing if it
were not geared towards combative realism. Life is too short
to spend time training something that's not absolutely fundamentally
useful.
Thank you for your input... I really
do appreciate it.

Phil

Phil;
You said "Life is too short to spend time training something that's not absolutely fundamentally useful." I agree with you and have always preferred to study martial arts that have such "usefullness".

However, it's also true that you can practise pa-kua circle-walking for health-purposes on many levels without it being done on a martial level. In fact, some martial historians link the origins of circular patterns in this art to certain religious/meditative practices that are still apparently used by some Taoist sects. In recent years, the Western religious practise of "walking the maze" while praying and/or meditating has become popular again and even the most cynical might see the common thread between "walking the maze" and "walking the circle" in terms of the meditative state such activities can lead to.

In any case, If you can't find a good pa-kua teacher who practises what you are looking for martially and has some realism to the interactive training then you are better off studying arnis for martial purposes and practising circle-walking as qigong. Of course, I might also suggest, to confuse the issue, that it is very difficult to do the forms/walking well -- on any level -- unless you have had well-rounded training from the beginning.