Archive through July 23, 2003

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Bagua/xingyi tournament training: Archive through July 23, 2003
   By Dave C. on Tuesday, September 19, 2000 - 11:28 pm: Edit Post

If you were going to train for a full contact competition what areas of bagua/xing yi (esp. bagua) would you emphasize?

It seems to me that xingyi might be more easily adaptible to tournaments because gloves don't impede the execution of the five elements that much. Thoughts?

   By Sum Guye on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 01:47 am: Edit Post

I would take LOTS of privates with Tim and
have him guide my training (just like Burgess Merideth). His 'Shen Wu' curriculum is
geared towards all around fighting..
although all Tim does cover everything from
striking to ground finishes with each of the
arts he teaches. I think a hefty mix of Xing Yi, Tai Ji, Yi Chuan and Bagua plus lots of jujitsu would prepare the heck out of a fighter
who is serious about an upcoming competition.

Then, Tim can always take sparring 'full bore' and
give out a solid dose of what to expect- and still
laugh with the student afterwards (after his wife finishes lecturing him on going too intense).

I think a lot of the Bagua throws could work well
with gloves (assuming they're the gloves that allow your fingers to grab)... for regular boxing
gloves I'd have to chew them off and go bare handed (my wrists don't deal well with punching ).

That's it for me.... I'd do whatever Tim suggested
cause he knows better than I.

   By Meynard on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 10:14 am: Edit Post

Ditto...well said sum Guye. We've got to get you in the ring.

   By A Lurker on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 12:05 pm: Edit Post

How about suggestions for people not living near Tim?

   By Sum Guye on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 01:21 pm: Edit Post


I'm sure Tim will be online shortly to
give a good answer to the original question.

you know I'm a lover not a fighter.... if Tim could only help me gear up for full contact orgies... IF I was up for full contact tournament fighting I would want Tim to coach me and I'd be much more hard-core about my training. I don't have the 'eye-of-the-tiger'.... I have the 'eye-of-the-amorous-bunny'. (I use my Bagua throws to
toss women onto my circular silk bed.. they love it).

   By Tim on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 01:42 pm: Edit Post

As far as competition is concerned, I would always train according to the rules of the fight. If you are fighting 'full contact' without ground fighting (San Shou for example), then I would choose a few hand techniques, a couple of kicks, and a few fast takedowns (a footsweep and leg tackle for example) and drill them as much as possible. You need to work on your wind (fast striking drills, lots of bag work and running), many fights will be determined not by who knows the most techniques, but by who has the greater endurance. High repetition calisthenics and more difficult bodyweight exercises are also important. Practicing too many techniques will usually lead to confusion in the ring. Remember, under the stress and adrenaline of competition, techniques need to be simple and reflexive. Another important training method (one my Xing Yi Quan teachers used to great effect when we trained for full contact competition in Taiwan)was to have us spar in a limited format. For example, we would put on gear and spar full contact, but only with our hands, or only with our feet, or we would clinch and practice only standing wrestling throws and takedowns. A variation is to allow one fighter to punch and kick only, while his opponent is only allowed to wrestle; or one fighter can only punch while his opponent can only kick. These types of drills force the fighter to become well rounded, rather than only focusing on his best game. Obviously, in the ring, you always want to pull your opponent into your game, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. Finally, sparring continuously for a greater length of time than your actual fight, with the same equipment you will wear in the competition will build up the stamina and toughness required, while the fighter becomes accustomed to the feeling of the gear (headgear, gloves, cup...). If the competition includes groundfighting (vale tudo for example), a proportionately greater amount of time should be spent on ground grappling, as most likely this is where the better part of the fight will take place. From my own experience, I think that practicing a limited number of techniques, emphasis on cardio training and a great amount of time spent on all-out non-cooperative sparring drills were the most important elements that helped me win.

   By Dave C. on Wednesday, September 20, 2000 - 11:22 pm: Edit Post

Thanks! That's what I wanted. Looking at possibly entering the guo shu competitons here in Taiwan.

Did you find xingyi more easily adaptable to tournament fighting?

   By Sum Guye on Thursday, September 21, 2000 - 12:17 pm: Edit Post


I forgot you were studying abroad, I hope I didn't
sound like a smart-ass.

Good luck with your upcoming tournament(s).

   By Anonymous on Thursday, September 21, 2000 - 02:50 pm: Edit Post

Hi Dave

what kind of competitions are the "guo shu"-competiotions?


   By Dave C. on Thursday, September 21, 2000 - 11:45 pm: Edit Post

Sum Guye,
No offence taken guye!

I really don't know much about the guo shu tournaments. "Guo shu" means national arts which is what Taiwan collectively calls the martial arts. They use this instead of "wu shu" 'cause that's an evil mainland term.

I read about them as a kid in "inside kung fu". They are full contact on the lei tai and, in the past, didn't use much protective gear.

Many people have fought in them: Luo laoshi, Tim (I think), Mike Patterson, and some people from Virginia that I read about.

I asked Luo laoshi about them and he said the prelims are in May with the finals here in October. HOWEVER, I have heard that they are very influenced by mainland san shou rules now so I don't know what to think. The groups here are very clique-ish and it's hards to get info.

Still, for the old timers these fights seemed like a right of passage and I think competing a few times could be valuable.

If I get a chance to go I'll post my impressions.

   By Anonymous on Friday, September 22, 2000 - 01:42 am: Edit Post

>If I get a chance to go I'll post my impressions.

you mean if you survive? ;-)

   By Ed Henne on Friday, September 22, 2000 - 09:14 am: Edit Post

Hey Dave C., Where did you read about the some folks from Virginia fighting in the gou shu in Taiwan? Those are my folks,I'd like to have a copy of any articles you find. Thanks,Ed Henne

   By Dave C. on Saturday, September 23, 2000 - 11:47 pm: Edit Post

If I don't make it out alive I'll have my girlfiend post. After she grieves of course!

I remember reading about these tournaments a long time ago (in the 80's) in "inside kung fu". That's where I heard about the guys from Virginia. I remember a picture of a guy named Joe Dunphy(?) that won his division and he's wearing the gardening gloves they used as sparing gloves. Don't know what issues though.

   By Tim on Monday, September 25, 2000 - 07:35 pm: Edit Post

When I fought in Taiwan (in the 80's) the rules were about the same as the modern San Shou rules. All strikes were legal, except finger strikes to the eyes; you could punch, elbow, knee and kick anywhere on the body. All throws and takedowns were legal, but you only had a few seconds in the clinch before the ref broke you apart. There was no groundfighting. We fought two three minute rounds, with the loser out and the winner advancing. You will probably have between three and five fights (if you keep winning). I fought three times in Taiwan. I took fourth in my first competition and won the next two. Good luck.

   By Josh (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 06:33 pm: Edit Post

Interesting thoughts in regards to a sparring excersize called "rou shou" (soft hands?) I haven't heard much mention of this practice around and have found it to be very useful in sparring. Well, gotta split.Josh

   By Arek (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 06:34 am: Edit Post

Tim why do you believe if it is vale tudo or nhb it will be mostly on the ground? Alot of fights today end in ko, because the all around fighters (mma) can defend take downs well and get back up well.

   By Alex Hanning on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 09:23 am: Edit Post

Joe Dunphy was running the lei tai fighting until recently, at the annual Baltimore Kuoshu competition. Mike Patterson usually has some of his students taking part there (they invariably do well!)
Speaking of which, on MP's website he has an article about full contact training. The only thing to add would be his emphasis on training with a heavy bag.

   By Tim on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 07:05 pm: Edit Post

You're right, it depends on the fighters.

   By Josh (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 06:35 pm: Edit Post

I think that you guys probobly get this question alot in different forms, but here goes anyhoo; when I train in Hsing I and Pakua alot, I notice that I feel as if I need some sort of supplementary cardiovascular activity to make me feel physically stronger i.e., jogging, pushups etc... But when I do these things, I find that the physical tension that naturally accumulates doing these things inhibits me from being as loose, calm and rooted as I like to be when I spar. BUT, I lack enough speed to make my techniques effective when I don't train that way and I am not skilled enough to rely solely on timing and angles for effective technique. When I do alot of Hsing I , I find this problem lessened somewhat as the line drilly keep you moving fairly quickly. I guess my question is really not so much a question as it is a rambling comment fishing for commentary from others as it's fairly obvious that I should find a balance in these training methods..... Well, thanks for listening; any ideas? Josh

   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, July 23, 2003 - 10:47 pm: Edit Post

Not involved in tournaments, but I was quite aware of how my weight training ( although modest) affected my 'looseness' and its related speed. Don't want to give up the weights, they're usefull for other parts of my life and health, but I changed from doing everything 3X weekly sessions to breaking the routine down to doing weights four out of six days, a different muscle group each session. (abds and back, though, are every other day, without weights). I find this an acceptable trade off, although still if for some reason I have to miss training three days in a row I am aware of increased looseness and sensitivity. Same problem even from stance training, everything is a trade off.