Completing the chi circuit

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Completing the chi circuit

   By Great Illuminator on Wednesday, December 13, 2000 - 10:22 pm: Edit Post

Meynard and the Sardonic One

I do not consider myself a martial art expert.OK.Some areas I have what I feel is a decent understanding in other areas I am lacking.I do however believe there is something to be gained by exploring the role of verbal cues and belief systems in the role of helping a student such as myself make a proper kinetic connection.

Does one only want scientific facts layed on them.Sometimes I do,but at other times it becomes too Baroque in a science sort of way.Other times mystical passage seems to invoke the proper response.I realize a lot of impostors and frauds use flowery and mystical cues in their teaching with no real basis in fact.For me personally however the martial art world would be a lot worse off if all that was used to communicate was dry scientific fact.

Beyond that and not being an "expert" I feel I can learn from just about anyone.In that cultural abyss known as Wyoming I expierenced what I considered many positive developmental types of physical training.Dry sking down a canyon.Great for agility.Wading out into a River with a strong current over slippery moss laden rocks.Great for the balance.Feeling the peng jin of a 15 pound spawning german brown trout.Enticing a Pronghorned Antelope to race your vehicle reaching 60 mph before the antelope puts on a final burst and cutting out in front and passing.Yeah Baby.Watching The Miracle Mile come alive.The Great Northern out of Cheyenne,from sea to shining sea.So I,m no expert but I try and learn from everybody and everything.


The mass is initiated how?With what?

Sardonic One,

Take your time with your concession speech.No reparations are in order either.

"Steal Your Face,Right Off Your Head "

   By Rocky on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 03:03 am: Edit Post

Bob #2,

Is he speaking latin? Does Sardonic have something to do with little canned fish? Is he calling you a fish lover?

   By Meynard on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 01:04 pm: Edit Post

I thought you said that you weren't going to post anymore? Geez make up your mind!!!

If your truly were here to learn you should first start by asking a sincere questions.

   By Great Illuminator on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 01:28 pm: Edit Post


I am not slamming but you come off as some sort of a technocrat IMO.Black and White,circles and squares.Your statement that you thought I was pro chi.I am pro chi and I am also pro science and all for proper and correct body mechanics.Do they have to be mutually exclusive?

I do not know if you have ever lived in a region where there are four seasons or not.Say for example that you are practicing 100 yard lines of Beng Chuan.It is the towards the end of winter,the snow is falling and the sweat is dripping of your forehead.It is snowing and still winter,but you can smell spring.No choice or line of demarcation is needed.

Loosen up Man.You take this far to serious.Go do some Swai Ba Hsien,do some rolls and falls on the concrete street,loose baby,play.

   By Bob #2 on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 02:10 pm: Edit Post

No Rocky,

Sardonic is Greek: 'skeptically humorous'.
In the way GI used it, it's a compliment.

I counter your Litigation Palm with a Frivolous Suit Mule Kick to the joke you call a groin.

   By Meynard on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 02:39 pm: Edit Post

Great Illuminator,

What's not to like about science. At least most of it can be proven. I like being able to write something mathematically prove it to be correct. I like physics. I like my training to have some scientific base. I have almost exclusively trained in internal martial arts and both of my teachers have been very scientific in their approaches. And they are both the very best at what they do. I figured that I'd follow their lead because they seem to be doing something right.

I'm not into the nature boy stuff that you seem to like to do. Sometimes you just can't take those kung fu stories literally. I believe they were the comic books of their day. I'm sure there is some basis in reality regarding the almost supernatural martial arts abilities of some people, but I think reality has been stretched out a bit because it makes the stories sound better and because people were just really ignorant back then.

Unlike you I don't want to feel anything from a fiteen pound trout, especially when they are spawning. That's just weird, but hey whatever rocks your boat...sicko.

Also it's not how much you train or how strange your training method is or how scientific it is. It has to do a lot with how correct it is. It starts from a lot of good foundation training and really understanding basic skills. Basic meaning most important. Incorrect training is still incorrect training no matter how much you do it.

Oh, I don't take you seriously at all. As far as I'm concerned you're just the next guy in line in a long line of misguided martial arts practitioners. But I do take martial arts seriously, but that doesn't mean I'm going to do the bump and grind with a 15 lb spawning trout...that's just too funny.

   By Meynard on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 02:42 pm: Edit Post

Great Illuminator,

The next time you post I will officially call you TROUT BITCH. Just so you know. :-)

   By Great Illuminator on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 08:50 pm: Edit Post

Sardonic One,

I was just thinking of taking you on as a student,and now this latest insult.I have on good source that you are a survivor of several near death expierences,as a result of having been a student of Earl "THE DEADLY" from Deludedville Austrailia.To survive those deadly eyes and the ever constant threat of a Dim Mak from the Down Under One.

But I will still give you a chance under these conditions and understandings.

1)Every Chinese New Year I will require as a token of your apppreciation and gratitude for teaching you a little red packlet stuffed full of at least $3000.I secretly fingerprint my students so I know who is giving what.They think I am psychic.

2) Prior to the start of your training you will be required to perform 1,ooo,ooo macro and micro cosmic orbits of energy,with the focus in your case being on dissolving that obstinate and pugnacious region directly to the posterior of your perenium.

3)You must decide whether you want to be a lounge singer or a martial artist.This Tom Jones obsession and fixation will have to go prior to the start of training.

4)And Meynard will enjoy giving you an extra set of lips on this one.You will be required prior to the start of training to Suck 50 Farts out of an old Bus Seat.

   By Bob #2 on Thursday, December 14, 2000 - 10:16 pm: Edit Post


I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in this public forum.

Truly, I'm astounded at the levels to which you sink in order to prove that you are:

1. unable to comprehend the obvious.
2. unable to even feign levity.
3. unable to form a coherent paragraph.
4. unable to stop yourself when you well know you are out classed (in some cases that trait would be admirable- this isn't one).

I had been enjoying this- (although I'm certain sysop would prefer the forum remain geared more towards mature discussion of martial arts)- but after reading you most recent post I can only say that I sincerely hope you never see yourself in an honest light.

Enjoy the ignorance of yourself.

   By Meynard on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 01:14 am: Edit Post

Alright Mr Trout @#$%*

Now there is no doubt that you are a total and complete idiot.

Explain to me the trout thing...was the antelope just way too fast? I guess it gets kind of lonely there in Wyoming. You must be one *&%$## up guy.

   By Great Illuminator on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 02:53 pm: Edit Post


>"People were just ignorant back then."

Really.Like Tung Hai Chuan.Da Vinci was a pretty ignorant chap.And all of those Gothic Cathedrals that were built in the time of the ignorant.The ability to develop high quality steel was never done any better than by those "ignorant people back then".How man arts and skills are forever lost that were developed by the "ignorant" of the past.Yeah Right.Is this what you mean by circles and squares,and black and white.I do not believe that you really do.

I cringe when seemingly narrow minded sorts spout off about the "CORRECT WAY".In your case do you mean black or white? Or circles or squares.And Meynard I am not saying that you are narrow minded.

I am all for the correct way as well.But people define the correct way in different ways.That is probably why there are so many different "styles".And I think one has to be very careful how one implements "the correct way."

I would like to think that before I foist "the correct way " that I think about this fact a little bit.

"The body organizes itself (motor activity) according to the final task required. " Berstein

The above statement confirms what I have sometimes felt, that too little instruction is sometimes better than too much.The body organizes itself to achieve a specific task.I personally respect this and try and implement the correct way in a harmonious fashion,in such a way that the instruction is not disturbing,but augmenting this motor activity.The good instructors IMO blend the system with the student.I believe(not know) that Tim does this.

Along with the concept of specificity (speed of exercise,motion of exercise)is the physiological discovery that exercises maximizing the power produced(speed and strength)produces maximum performance results for ballistic type events,jumping ,running,fighting and wrestling,ect.

Researchers also have found that there are different types of strength(slow speed strength,starting strength,high speed strength,etc.)Things that those ignorant from the past already knew innately and through bitter expierence.(Sorry Meynard I could not resist).

So the training issue and the correct way assertion becomes a multi faceted issue.But for events such as fighting,the ability to develop maximum RFD in the shortest amount of time(speed strength)becomes critical,among other things.

And to me it also becomes an issue of Mechanics vs.Mechanical.

Meynard you obviously are an intelligent person.You are in a great school and system,with a great and knowledgeable teacher.Not knowing you personally I really have no idea about your teaching and instruction beliefs.It just seems based on some of your postings that the "rigid in belief" shoe could possibly fit.But something tells me you really are not that way.

Among the ridiculous hyperbole of the previous posts I have tried to insert a little debate.And I KNOW y,all didn,t take it seriously.Bye.And HAPPY HOLIDAYS!

"A peaceful place,or so it looks from space,
A closer look reveals the human race"

   By Meynard on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 03:38 pm: Edit Post

Great Illuminator,

Funny I never thought of Da Vinci as being ignorant at all. He was a freakin genius and so was Tung Hai Chuan. The creators and discoverers of the technology and body of knowledge that we have now were of course not ignorant, but they were the exception to the rest of the population. Everything of course is relative to the point of history that you want to talk about.

The correct way is in working in harmony with the way nature operates. It really is as simple as that. Although I like the scientific approach to things, sometimes it's just overdone by people who have a need to validate their ideas and explain things that have already existed with a new and fancy twist. Like those martial artist who use scientific terms to make it seem like They know more because "it's so scientific." Kind of like you with your RFD.

"In explaining a phenomenon we should use no more explanatory concepts than are absolutely necessary." - Ockham's Razor

That is, Keep it Simple Student.

Now to the rest of the board, Great Illuminator's behavior can be excused by Hanlon's Razor...

"Never attribute malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

   By the original Macaco fino on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 05:53 pm: Edit Post

Just a side note, Da Vinci was an early pioneer in the great lost fighting art of "Giocco Stretto." (It's true, a wandering Taoist named Bruno told me so...) Ask Tim, he's seen my certificate. It's written in Italian and states:

"Le congratulazioni lei brutto individuo, Ringraziarlo per il suo denaro, lei sono adesso un grande guerriero. Va mangia adesso un pizza."

This translates into roughly, "Congratulations you ugly guy, thank you for your money, you are now a great warrior. Now, go eat a pizza."

This diatribe is getting pretty good. I don't mean to break anyone's momentum. Please carry on. (Where's Bob #2, when you need a break to entertain the groundlings...)

good training,
Macaco fino

   By Bob #2 on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 07:15 pm: Edit Post

At the moment I'm doing a seminar in the UCLA Children's Cancer ward. The little tyke's are starved for attention. Surprisingly bald and brittle- but they learn quickly.

I'm giving them intensive Ninjitsu training. Later tonight we are going to raid the burn ward
(our sources say they get better snacks!). Those crispy little bastards wont stand a chance against my miniature militia 'The Kemo-kamikazes'

   By the original Macaco fino on Friday, December 15, 2000 - 07:58 pm: Edit Post

Oh that Bob #2, always doing volunteer work around the holiday season...

good training,
Macaco fino

   By Great Illuminator on Saturday, December 16, 2000 - 03:56 pm: Edit Post

Original Macaco fino,

Yes the Italians,the real master race,next to the Ethiopians that is.

"As Leonardo was passing by Santa Trinita in the company of Giovanna da Gavina,from the bench of the Spini,where a number of gentlemen had gathered to discuss some verses of Dante,someone called to ask him to explain to them.At that time Michelangelo happened to walk by,and Leonardo promptly said:"Michelangelo will tell you." Thinking that he was being involved so that he could be made fun of due to the Piccolomini altarpiece,Michelangelo retorted angrily:"You tell them,you who have made a model of a horse in order to cast it in bronze,and you couldn,t do it,and had to abandon it for your shame."And having said this, Michelangelo turned his back to them,leaving Leonardo there, red in the face."

Sound Familiar?

Apologies for for using the names of Meynard and #2 below,in the same post as Leonardo and Michelangelo.

>Meynard, You give new meaning to the phrase White Men Can,t Jump.Or Dance.Or the delivery of a proper insult without the aid of a quotation.

Stand on your head,jump backwards to Canada or do a round of High Colonics Therapy, but for Christ,s sakes loosen up, you sometimes science believing(when it suits your point of the moment)Always chi hating,never original Frickin STIFF.

>Bob #2,Some of Parks students would like to know where Bob #2 teaches classes.You publicly slammed him.Now it,s time for Bob #2 to get honest.

   By Bob #2 on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 02:53 am: Edit Post

If Park himself wishes to defend his honour, he knows exactly where to find me. If indeed Parks students are interested, they should ask him to tell them about our last encounter. That's all I have to say about that.

Mona Lisa's husband, who had commissioned her portrait, refused to pay for it because he said it was not a good likeness of her.
(it's a fact)

By the way... Meynard is a delightful dancer. I'm white and have insulted you AND Park without resorting to a single quotation. And when I have the opportunity to introduce you to my right nub- you'll jump, you'll jump like a stuck flea.
(my nub is color blind).

   By Bob on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 03:25 am: Edit Post

Belly laughing uncontrollably!

   By Kim age 10 on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 04:10 am: Edit Post

Thanks to Mr. #2 trainging our ward got
4 bags of Raisonettes
2 king size bags of M&Ms
1 case of chocolate milks
and a DVD player and several movies.
He is very fun. When he wasn't yelling.
the raid was fun.
I threw several burnies very hard.

thanak you for this cool site, Mr. Cartmell.
when my marrow is low I go to your site and then my marrow doesn't feel so low.

Kim (age 10)
Officer 2nd class

   By Great Illuminator on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 03:45 pm: Edit Post

OK,OK Bob #2 works with kids.Right On.And now I feel bad about insulting him.A man who really knows better than to put a round peg in a square hole.

Speaking of which.What do they call someone who sucks elephant balls?


   By SifuSanta on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 04:59 pm: Edit Post

Kim -

You have been naughty. No presents for you.

Sifu Santa,

   By ChitlinsConCarne on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 06:28 pm: Edit Post

"Speaking of which.What do they call someone who sucks elephant balls?


Huh? What does this have to do with this discussion or any between intelligent people?

Are Park's guys such weenie's they have to go through the G.I. to pass messages?

   By Bob #2 on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 07:17 pm: Edit Post

Big Mouth,

Even if you do have a square hole- I'll manage to stuff my round peg knee-deep in it.

(oh, you haven't managed to insult me yet only yourself, consistantly. But keep flailing- something might land sooner or later- surly, the odds are way in your favor by now.).

   By Sum Guye on Sunday, December 17, 2000 - 07:26 pm: Edit Post

whoa, go away fishing for a couple of weeks and
you guys just don't slow down.

going through all the postings- there are so many questions, first:

"...leaving Leonardo there, red in the face.
Sound Familiar? "

No- G.I. should that sound familiar?
Please explain that one to those who don't understand.

   By Meynard on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 11:57 am: Edit Post

G.I.'re still here? I've never known of anybody who talks of so much nonsense and at the same time so clueless. Now go away...come back when you've had a total brain replacement. Shoo!

Oh're just jealous of my quotes!!! My quote is better than your quote! nah nah nah.

   By Save the Child on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 01:01 pm: Edit Post

a different bob.

would you share your Park story with those of us who have only seen the advertising slogans and not the master himself?


ps.. are you sure that GI isn't one of those kids left badly damaged by your last raid on the childrens pysch ward?

   By Bob #2 on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 01:19 pm: Edit Post


I might have if you had used my proper name.

(the attack was on the Burn ward- not the pysch ward. The psyco ward kids get the crumiest snacks of all; why bother.)

   By Great Illuminator on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 02:38 pm: Edit Post

The Great Illuminator will not explain about the Leonardo/Michelangelo incident today.But he will clarify the prevailing theory on why Mona Lisa,s husband did not accept the portrait by Leonardo.As usual Bob#2 is wrong or in this case only half right.And I,being an expert on the human condition will tell you the real reason.

You have to understand the psyche of the Italian male.You see Italian males like,no they NEED to keep lifes "affairs" in distinct and seperate compartments.And it is completely and totally unacceptable for an Italian Male to have a wife anywhere close to being in the know about lifes affairs.This is why the portrait not being accepted because of not enough likeness is a bunch of jive.

The real reason being that any red blooded Italian Male would not and could not tolerate his wife "watching " his every move.

PS, Meynard you want me to leave.Then ask the appropriate question.Clue. The beginning of Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid.

   By Meynard on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 05:06 pm: Edit Post


You're an expert in the human condition, ehhh??? It just doesn't stop. Pay attention. This is your current condition in this board. NOBODY LIKES YOU! Any sane person would've gotten the message a long time ago. Expert, indeed.

   By Meynard on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 05:09 pm: Edit Post

Oh I forgot to add...SHOO! Go away kid, you bother me.

   By Save The Child on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 06:50 pm: Edit Post

ok ok senor Roberto the second

have any of you guys really trained with GI's mob ? ... is Master Park a master or are GI et al talking out of the incorrect chi cavity..


ps i thought the psych kids have to eat each other

   By Bob #2 on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 08:17 pm: Edit Post

(you can call me Bob #2)

I've never studied with G.I.'s mob... GI doesn't have a mob. GI does a lot of reading and then stands in his living room and tries to copy the pictures in the magazine. (you, most of all should know that).

as I stated previously on the 'Park matter'
"...that's all I have to say about that"
(but I will say that Park is a master at milking an Asian heritage and a wee bit of martial knowledge for all it's worth).

   By the original Macaco fino on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 09:08 pm: Edit Post

This thread is amazing. I'm very impressed with its depth...
(I thought the Ethiopian thing was good, but the male psyche touch was fantastic.)

   By Save the Child on Monday, December 18, 2000 - 10:10 pm: Edit Post

bob no 2

yeah i thought as much.. no one seems to be definite with reasons about why so-and-so is not worthy... my teacher, here in the uk, has two tests..can the teacher fight and can the students fight?.. apply them to Park and..?


   By Bob #2 on Tuesday, December 19, 2000 - 02:54 pm: Edit Post

.... get let down.

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