Archive through November 13, 2003

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Stop having sex: Archive through November 13, 2003
   By rumbrae (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:34 am: Edit Post


Quelle surprise that a fighter offers a challenge - and a chinese reading, IMA lineage holding, qianxu lao wai at that :-)

What do "world class fighters", sportsmen shouting "SHOW ME THE MONEY" know about qi compared to those that are not fighters and devote their life to qi?

To answer your question, yes, I can demonstrate what I know.

To answer another's question, one can reduce his urge to splurge by removing those things that cause the urge.

   By sex guru (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 03:36 am: Edit Post

If you want to get laid, stop doing martial arts, which are full of ugly men, and go to a salsa class ( but pleeez don't grind up against the women just because they're there, they don't like it). That way you have a chance to meet women, and see how people who do have sex manage get together.

Yoga, contemporrary dance are other activities with cute women, but not the same social interaction.

Alternatively become a student of someone like Ross Jeffries.

then post something on the board, when you're happily exchanging bodily fluids and say 'thankyou sex guru!'. Actually post it after after you've finished as that will seem less nerdy to your partner, After they've gone home is better still.

   By Maciej (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 05:02 am: Edit Post

In Jarek's interview with Mr.Ma Chuanxu who is a Liang style Baguazhang expert these are some things he had to say (I am taking exerts from the interview):

"JS: As far as I know Taoists suggest that one should also stop having sex, otherwise the Small and Large Heavenly Circles will never open. Is that true for Bagua Neigong practice as well?

MR.MA: Yes, this is very important condition. My teacher told me that at the very beginning - if you want to develop true skill, you must be like a monk, living in celibacy. There is a story about "Coal" Ma, who was selling coal in Beijing's Caishikou. When he started to study Baguazhang from Dong Haichuan, he took his quilt and moved out to live in the shop. He lived there for three years and did not return home even once during that time.

Your body requires one week to recover after one sexual intercourse. i.e. come back to the condition before the intercourse. One hundred days is required to recover Original Qi (Yuan Qi) completely (i.e. recover to the condition before one had any sex). About three years is required to open Small Heavenly Circle.

JS: What about married people? I'm afraid people who have families will have difficulty with developing any Internal Skill then...

MR.MA: There is not a big problem with practice in Middle Basin (Zhong Pan), you can still get Internal Skill. However once you decide to practice Lower Basin you have to stop any sexual activity.

JS: What if one decides to practice in Lower Basin without fulfilling that requirement?

MR.MA: You will only hurt yourself. Lower Basin is a very demanding practice for the body and it will not be able to endure it. During Lower Basin practice you have to eat well and have good rest. It is like having a bank account. If you draw 1 million dollars from it and then transfer 1 million back it is OK. If you transfer 1 million and one dollar, you will have little saving - surplus energy. However if you transfer only 990 thousand, you will be in dept - your body will not be able to recover from the effort. In this way although your muscles may get stronger, your internal strength, internal potential, will decrease. This phenomena can be easily recognized by hearing one's voice - weak voice, neither loud nor clear, sometimes accompanied by coughing is the symptom of low energy level. Lower Basin method is most suitable for young, unmarried people. Otherwise you have to make the decision to become like a monk for three years...

JS: We were talking about Small Heavenly Circle. What about the Large Heavenly Circle (Da Zhou Tian)?

MR.MA: Once the Small Circle is opened, the Large will open naturally. There is a saying "Small Achievement comes in three years, Big Achievement - in ten years" (Xiaocheng San Nian Dacheng Shi Nian). One has to live in celibacy for at least six years to achieve true skill. Once the skill comes out, you still have to limit the number of sexual intercourses. Two, three times a week will ruin your skill completely. Once every two, three months is not a big problem.

JS: What do you mean by ruining the skill?

MR.MA: Your legs and waist (lower back) will lose the flexibility and strength. There are many martial arts practitioners who had remarkable skill in youth but when older they could hardly walk. This was caused by excessive sex. One of my teachers, Guo Gumin, was never married. When I started Bagua practice in 1961, for six years I was practically living in celibacy as well. At 5:00PM I was coming back home from work, ate dinner, and immediately went to practice. I was coming back at 1:00AM, after 6-7 hours of practice. Everyday, without even one day of rest."

   By Abdullah Orozco on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:59 pm: Edit Post

Rumbrae, Maciej,

What the hell does Qi have to do with fighting?

   By THE (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 01:06 pm: Edit Post

I think that Interview can speak for most of my thoughts.
My goal is to raise my Chi (and along with that usually comes spititual attainment), and be able to use that in affect with my IMA's. I am no master, but like you said "If it works, its good." And what I have seen, read, and discussed with other instructors who "have a high skill of internal martial arts" all seem to have general and complex rules into becoming a great internal martial artist.
I have no doubt that you can demonstrate what you know and I actually admire you for the amount of dedication you put forth into the Martial Arts.
As you know, there is basically two categories of martial arts "Internal" and "External", and the internal is considered a more advanced and more complex art. Any one can perform Xing I, Bagua, Tai Chi, it is just a matter if they are performing it correctly ( the breathing, the body structure, the rules when practicing these IMA's correctly). You can do Bagau Externally and be good at it. You can do Bagua Internally (correctly) and be good at it. Overall, the soft overcomes the hard. I am not saying that you are doing any of these things, but I know you have a priceless amount of experience, which is why I am confused you do not agree with the main topic of disscussion. May be I am unclear about some things.

   By Abdullah Orozco on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 01:25 pm: Edit Post


You should read Brian Kennedy's piece on Sun Lutang in "Classical Fighting Arts."

   By Tim on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 01:34 pm: Edit Post

Cool, if you think being celibate will help with your martial arts.

I'm sure Ma Chuanxu is in great shape for his age. I see he's about 70 now. Carlos Gracie lived into his mid-ninties and was able to work out (grapple) almost until the day he passed away. He was also renouned throughout Brazil for his "spirituality." He had 23 children. Maybe there is more than one way to reach the "higher levels" of martial and spiritual development.

I'm still waiting for one of you to explain to me exactly what "higher levels" of IMA are, and how you can demonstrate them.

I'd also like an explanation on why it "depletes your original qi" when you ejaculate. We've known for a long time what happens when you lose sperm. Your body makes more sperm.

We also know that men who maintain a regular schedule of sex as they age have less problems with their reproductive system than men who don't.

From my vantage point of reality, I can't seem to see the positive benefits (in any area) for voluntary abstinence.

   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:11 pm: Edit Post

I'll add that in my vast experience, there are no positive benefits from involuntary abstinence either.


   By Shygirl (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:21 pm: Edit Post

Have you ever praticed putting out a candle with a handstrike? and if so, about how far away can you do that from the candle?

   By Shygirl (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:24 pm: Edit Post

Bob#2, Based on you philosophy on life, I think your experiences don't matter.

   By Michael Andre Babin on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:44 pm: Edit Post

Abstinance as a way of "purifying" the monk and or the warrior is an age-old tradition in both eastern and western culture (the Knights Templar, the Knights of St. John are examples of medieaval attempts to unite the two concepts). This agenda also often gets carried to ridiculous extremes by those with a sexual/emotional "axe to grind" .

Many famous and not-so famous masters have been fond of female company and have continued to demonstrate that interest into old age. The spirit and qi are still vital although the body grows old. It is also relevant to point out that many of the best Chinese masters that I have met were 'skirt chasers", heavy drinkers, heavy smokers, ate whatever food was put in front of them -- in other words, ordinary human beings, warts and all. Too many western students of the Chinese internal arts are looking for the arch-typal "master" from having watched too many episodes of the old Kung Fu series.

It 's also always a good idea to introduce common-sense when faced with extreme views on human sexuality; remember that even Sigmund Freud was quoted as saying "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

Finally, having met Tim, I would respectfully add to those of you who have made somewhat snotty comments about him for his answers on this topic that I wouldn't hesitate to take his advice on most issues that pertain to real martial training as opposed to the wishfull-thinking that often plays such a large part of modern internal arts.

   By ned (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:48 pm: Edit Post

rock out with your cock out!

   By ZING (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:53 pm: Edit Post


   By Maciej (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 02:57 pm: Edit Post

I also thought (read) Dong Haichuan remained abstinent and encouraged Ying Fu (who did not) to as well.

   By rumbrae (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 08:54 pm: Edit Post


From a purely qi perspective I don't agree one should stop sex completely forever. In general the body is like a battery and Qi the energy. Each person uses, stores, and builds up qi differently. BUT one needs to build up more than one uses in order to advance.

For qi in the context of IMA the Ma quote is great, he explains and can demonstrate things well (unless you feel it necessary to personnaly single out me for some reason) and gives an example that one can hurt his body practicing lower basin without a minimum amount of chi. Ma understood the requirement for qi and to reach higher levels of IMA. He dealt with reality fighting of multiple opponents with weapons, by himslef and bare handed on a regular basis throughout his life.

Do you, or are you merely a sport fighter?


   By chris hein on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 02:59 am: Edit Post

If you guys are worried about becomming better at martial arts (the ability to deal with physical conflict), you should prolly worrie less about saveing up your seamen, and spend more time grappling and boxing. If your worried about magic, and the ability to send people flying through the air with chi, you should sit down with your dungion master and see what advice he has for you.

   By harold (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 05:56 am: Edit Post

"High level", to my mind, is a product of many factors: talent, hard work, dedication etc. Maybe "Chi conservation" in the restricted sense discussed here is a side issue - I would even say that thinking too much about it might cloud the view!
Anyway, the matter is too complex for simple prescriptions.

   By european (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 06:03 am: Edit Post


I agree with what you say, as often happens.

But, excedeeing the pure fighting aspect, I must remarke that in every Tradition we can find celibacy as a omnipresent requirement for higer grades of special advancement in spiritual growht.
Classical misterical rites, christianity, buddhism, sufism, taoism etc., they all teach abstinence in different forms.

I don't want (don't feel able to)to become a saint, I feel my highest attainement in this life is to become a Vir (real man in latin, different from homo). Not an easy task at all.

At the same time I would like to remark that the Way of the Warrior is different from the way of the Monk. Warriors of every Tradition (Roman Legionaires, Spartan Homoioi, Japanese Samurai etc.) had their path in this world: they married, had children and so on.

   By FunJohn on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 10:31 am: Edit Post

Fools! Your lack of true knowledge is comedic, at best. When I read your posts this morning, I laughed so hard I ejaculated! Unfortunately, I have blown any chance of defending myself in the battle that is sure to come...

Based on my translation of the ancient Shaolin training manuals I possess (passed down to me from a secret sect of Episcopalians, disguised as Chinese, who infiltrated the temple 800 years ago), I must inform all of you that the real reason for abstinence is to store ejaculate so it may be used as a weapon.

It's actually a straight-forward concept - the longer you abstain, the more you have, and the greater velocity you can achieve upon release. It is quite effective.

For example, an eye strike can temporarily blind your opponent. A strike to the nasal cavities can disrupt breathing. A blow (no pun intended) to the torso can stain your opponents robes, forcing him to disengage the battle and immediately enlist the support of a drycleaner. I taught this technique some years ago to Bill Clinton, who successfully used it to stop the attack of an amorous young intern.

I hope each of you will appreciate the sacrifice I've made in sharing this secret knowledge, as I will be severly punished for my transgression. The ancient Sino / Episcopal manuscripts prophesize of "the man that uses his chi rod on his fellow man", who will come (again, no pun intended) to deal with those who share knowledge outside the sect. The prophecies have come true...

He exists in today, in our time. Many of you have recently seen him on TV and in newspapers, referred to as the "Gay Priest". He is in fact "The One", and will be dispatched shortly by the Anglicans to end my miserable life. In keeping with the ancient traditions, I will die by repeated violations of my Small Heavenly Circle.

My brothers and sisters, I leave you now for my time is short. I must seek the sacred lubricating lotion and prepare for battle.

   By Ian Powell on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 12:24 pm: Edit Post

When you write 'Buddhism' I think you're citing Theravada Buddhism there, and the distinction is important as Zen Roshis and Tibetan Lamas do take wives, or have other partners-- as well do Jewish Rabbis. The question that I have is if the principles of your MI practice are employed in the bar, car and bedroom. ie: is physical alignment good, intention clear, etc. Just a thought.