rumbrae,

Your example of higer level, spiritual martial arts (via Mr. Ma) is that if I have sex and then walk the circle lower than normal, it is somehow dangerous? Why? How do you know when you have "a minimum of qi?"

To all the other celibates,

I'm aware that many traditions preach celibacy as a method of cultivation. There are also traditions that advocate sexual practices as methods of cultivation. The goals of both are "spiritual." People back in the day made up all kinds of things. Is either method more valid than the other? Is either method valid at all?

One more question. Having sex is part of a normal human's natural functioning. Why would going against one's nature (a fundamental error in IMA training) be in any way beneficial. Why not stop eating and breathing too?

Tim is meditation neccessariy in Internal Martial Arts?

Tim,

I never recommended celibacy.

I never qualified myself as celibate, you did.

It's all very simple. Read the post again, it stated that if one wants to realize more qi then one must build up more than one uses(sex being one example,the topic of this thread).

Yes, having sex is a part of most normal human's functioning, but if you want to be more than normal (barring abnormal people) you need to take various steps to reach that goal.

Never heard of sex as a means to truly achieving spiritual goals, please do explain.

You asked "How do you know when you have a minimum of chi?" Well, how do you know any other aspect about your own body when you spend hours a day training IMA, reading daoist books in chinese, being taught by lineage holders, sipping oolong tea at your cumputer?

One of my martial art instructors advocated not having sex (or ejaculating). I adhered to this philosophy for a period of time and ended up with a terrible case of blue balls with nothing but my lusty thoughts to entertain me. I felt like I was losing the battle of self control and martial acumen and resigned myself to my fate, that I am a sexual being and that it is nature's due course that my sperm runneth over. This should not cum as a surprise to any of you, and yet I still felt as though, perhaps, I had failed my martial arts teacher and the art I was trying to learn--I had failed to live up to the great lineage and my martial art ancestors. So in an attempt to transform myself into a martial art master, I made the ultimate sacrifice. I performed self-castration. In no way am I suggesting that any of you martial artists do this, but let me tell you--I can now call myself a martial art master. There is no more sex to be had. So that was that. It is true, my voice is a little higher (a la Uncle Jacko), I can't have kids anymore, my martial art instructor has nicknamed me "Monkey Who Lost Peaches," and looking at girls just aint the same, but it's really changed me. The problem is that my chi floats in a bottle of formaldahyde on my mantlepiece, reminding me every day what it was like being a man. And boy did it change me. I am now the number one student in the class and my martial ability has increased tenfold. I'm the kickinest, highest flying, power punchin, monk flying through the air, cart-wheeling, back-flippin, baddest mamajamma in the dojo. You got THAT, fruitcake?

Naw--I'm just joshn'.

Am I more than normal?

And speaking of spiritual enlightenment, have any of you all ever heard of Heaven's Gate?

This line of discussion brings up another point, you can not prove or disprove religion or whether someone is enlightened and by extenstion you can not prove that method x, y or z leads to that state. Religion is subjective.

Martial arts skill can be proven, and methods to create that skill can be proven. Sports, including martial arts, have objective ways to measure success. Martial art is objective.

This is another example of the fact that religion and martial arts have nothing in common.

take care,
Swami Brian

Check this web site out:

{http://www.sexforhealth.net/}

Rumbrae & Co. - Thought you might find this interesting. This is an arm of one of the largest (if not the largest) IMA school in Southern California. They ADVOCATE sexual practice, and believe in the intermingling / taking of "chi" during intercourse.

How profound, Swami!!!

You are absolutely right, religion is subjective, and like martial arts, it's a creation of man. But faith isn't. Now go read your bible.

Exodus 20:3
John 14:6

What?

God is real, scientists haven proven it, nothing subjective about it.

But, you are right. What does God have to do with IMA? Only fear, pride, ego, power, and money do because you can't serve two masters.

"you should prolly worrie less about saveing up your seamen, and spend more time grappling and boxing."

Chris Hein, you have no confidence in your style and believe boxing and grappling is superior to what you practise? That's like going to Rickson Gracies academy and Rickson telling you to study boxing because its more effective. Or going to a boxing gym and the instructor saying Muy Thai is better so you should study Muy Thai.

Tim,

quoting
1"I'm aware that many traditions preach celibacy as a method of cultivation.

exactly

2 There are also traditions that advocate sexual practices as methods of cultivation.

yes, tantrism for example

3 The goals of both are "spiritual."

of course

4 People back in the day made up all kinds of things.

not really..

5 Is either method more valid than the other?

yes and no, of course. Yes there's a better method for a specific person (better for him), no there's not an absolute method (otherwise it would be the only one remained).

6 Is either method valid at all?"
A serious method offers way to check progress but, as a matter of facts, only the individual can watch inside himself. Can we tell if somebody is in love at all?

regards,
the european

Ian,

I quoted buddhism (all kinds) but this does not mean that I do not acknowledge what you say: there are buddhist monks (mahayana and vrajayana too for ex.) but also buddhist laymen.

A serious practice is (should be..) perennial: in bar, gym, bedroom etc: being 'there', alligned, mentally aware.

Rumbrae,
if you believe that science, or scientists prove anything then you seriously misunderstand the nature of science.

Science only says that something has not been disproved within a certain statistical range.In other words that a working hypothesis exists.

Scientific 'proof' of the existence of God work on the simple principle that 'the universe is statisticaly extremely improbable to have arisen randomly, therefore it must have been created, therefore there must be a God.'

The same principle could be used with equal efficacy to the hypothesis 'the universe is statisticaly extremely improbable to have arisen randomly, therefore it must have been created, therefore there must be millions, possibly zillions, of invisible dwarves working away with tiny hammers create it.'

The statistical argument does not distinguish between the two hypothesis, and your choice of one over other just indicates your innate prejudices.

I'm getting seriously off topic, and the dwarves are calling me to play.

Since we're seriously off-topic already; I'd add that some ancient Germanic/Scandinavian myths describe how the dwarves were instrumental in creating the physical world ... and they used hammers (where do you think all the inspiration for dwarves mining gold come from in Western civilization. ie., Walt Disney's "Snow White", not to mention the doughty dwarves from Tolkien's pen) ... but I'd better stop as the only topic that seems to get contributors to this forum more agited than sex and religion is humour!

Ed,

God and Statistics?

Big Bang theory has been proven and accepted by scientists to be the source of the universe. The universe started from about the size of a dime. Scientists have proven that the universe is constantly expanding, and that it began to expand in a very precisely ordered manner in accordance with a set of basic mathematical constants and laws to get the design that we have today.

So what created those original laws and the big bang that we have been clawing at and only understand a mere fraction of?

The root of science is based on cause and effect. The universe is the effect so what is the cause that designed and created it?

Since the realization stated above the scientific community has been existing in a thundering silence over it. Interesting.

What you propose is those elements of science that allow you to think what you want. Create your own God if you will, not the other way around

Evolution? There is more scientific proof against it now than for it.

Spirituality based on sex? Someone please show me that in the bible...

Qi development based on sex? So how do they build it up when they are just spreading it around, in addition to basic inefficiencies of energy transfer? What is their goal, better sex? Hmmm very spiritual...

rumbrae,

You said "So how do they build it (qi) up when they are just spreading it around..."

So your definition of qi is sperm?

If you are interested in the use of sex in spiritual practices you can start by looking up Tantric Yoga and the Daoist traditions (lots of sex in Daoist esoterica. They didn't make you shave your head either).

What is being "more than normal?"

I'm still waiting for a definition of "higher levels of IMA."

Obviously we all have different opinions of the topic, and it seems that we are trying to justify what we think is right way and what we think is wrong way. I just think that if one studies chinese martial arts, in order to become the best martial artist he should be, he should follow those chinese guidlines. Sure, you can still kick ass and not follow these guidlines, but if you did, you could be unstopable, and YOU WILL NEVER KNOW till you truley follow these guide lines endless effort and dedication, and find out for yourself.

rumbrae,
Much in the spirit of how I've understood Tim's teaching style-- showing forms, allowing space/time to experiment with them according to my particular qualities (height, weight, flexibility, etc.), advising based on experience-- it would be helpful to read/hear how you've worked with Qi, Science, Relgion, without it having become some kind of worship-state. It seems like if it works, then respect would be much more appropriate than worship... thanks

Tim,

I thought it was obvious from my posts I'm not interested in using sex for qi and spiritual attainment.

Read the post again, I never mentioned sperm, you did. Same performance based on previous posts, or refusal to really understand what I am writing?

You keep asking about higher levels of IMA. It has been well answered by Ma and quoted here, what's your problem?

A useful dialogue requires fair interaction of both parties. Why haven't you answered a single question of mine???

THE,
It seems that you are very interested in chinese martial arts. If I were you I would take very seriously what a man who has dedicated his life to them has to say. Someone who has immersed himself in chinese culture. Who reads and writes chinese. Who lived there for 12 years, spending all of his time with the best teachers of internal martial arts. Someone who dedicates all of his time to these matters. And who wont sell his integrity for money! I would listen to Tim and take awhile to think it over before you decide to argue with him based the knowledge you have gained from other peoples translations of chinese texts, and "sifu's" who are worried more about you buying silk pajamas, and paying lots of money to go to their retreat. I'm not saying that you should take all he as to say as the word of god. I'm just saying that if you want to really understand "Chinese Internal Martial arts" you should listen instead of talk so much.

rumbrae,
I don't think even you know what you are talking about.

-Chris

Hey Tim,
A lots of exercises I do, people don't consider normal excercises, Iron Bone, I Chin Ching, meditation and chi gung exercieses, "walking in a circle" for hours etc. But The more I practice these, a better martial artist I become. In order to become a great martial artist, you must go beyond the limits of others (Doing more than the "normal" average person), like you have done Tim.
Now I pretty sure you know what we mean by higher levels of IMA. Not that there is higher levels of training in the internal arts that no one has heard about, but people who have higher levels of experience in the internal arts. I would say, the easier it is for you to become obsorbed and perform/execute correctly IMA's and IMA's practices, the higher level of IMA you are at.