Archive through November 15, 2003

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Stop having sex: Archive through November 15, 2003
   By Shane on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 03:48 pm: Edit Post


you posted "Qi development based on sex? So how do they build it up when they are just spreading it around, in addition to basic inefficiencies of energy transfer? What is their goal, better sex? Hmmm very spiritual"

I think Tim was responding to the second sentence in that phrase. It certainly sounds like the "it" spreading around is sperm. Maybe you meant "legs".

you also said "Spirituality based on sex? Someone please show me that in the bible" which implies that you assume the 'bible' is the only basis for spirituality which is odd. But if so- I think King David was a spiritual guy... spread his sperm all over the place. And regularly 'slept' with virgins in his old age to rejuvinate himself. (the whole abstinance thing was brought into Christianity when the Catholics decided to right their own version of Christianity including lots of statues, idles, demigods and added emphasis on costly structures)-things Moses, at God's urging, strictly admonished.

To make things easier to understand- why don't you start a new thread called "Rumbrae's Questions" and list them out 1,2,3 then maybe it'll be easier for folks to figure out what it is you're trying to ask.

It might help for you to realize that you're a little wacky and hard to understand' for instance... in your last post you wrote:
"So how do they build it up when they are just spreading it around, in addition to basic inefficiencies of energy transfer? What is their goal, better sex? Hmmm very spiritual"

"How do they build "it" up...(sounds like you mean Chi)

...when they are just spreading it around... (you're talking about sex and chi and 'it' here appears to mean 'sperm' which leads the average person to make the leap you equate sperm with chi) addition to basic inefficiencies of energy transfer?.... (sure there is a question mark there but by now the average reader is confused and besides that.. what are the basic inefficiencies of energy transfer. If there is a conduit- energy has not problems transfering.

...What is their goal, better sex?... (and here you asked another question but before you even hear the answer is given you've already squashed it (ignorantly) with ....Hmmm very spiritual"

See- plain old wacky. I thought you understood that a useful dialogue requires fair interaction of both parties... but you're not being clear and then snidely answering your own questions.

   By THE (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 04:27 pm: Edit Post

Just to confirm to everyone, I am not anti-Tim. (However I do think Rumbrae is a little aggressive). I just discovered this site, and who Tim was. Based on his Biography, I know he has a load of experience over me, which I why I am grateful that he spends the extra time to awnser our questions, and I hope his responses make me a better martial artist.
but Tim, you give the impression that you are almost certain that this rule of improving you Internal martial arts is untrue, if you said, "THE, I had discussed this topic with my instructors, and have I attempted this practice; therefore, I am certain." I would be more understanding.

   By Juan (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:12 pm: Edit Post

Spirituality is a really clever buzzword, very overused in the twentieth century to describe just about anything. I could say that playing Ants in the Pants or Chutes and Ladders is fulfilling some type of spirtual quest for me. So how does spirituality relate to religion? Who cares. How does spirituality relate to IMA? Who cares. I wouldn't describe King David as a spiritual guy, I would better describe him as a man of faith. And to reference Shane's commentary on Catholocism, unfortunately, he's right. The Church of Pergamos has been with us for centuries and now we are in the time of the Church of Laodicea.

I believe Tim has been very generous and has had more than enough patience in even attempting to answer these questions. If you want to get good at IMA, you train hard. If you want to conserve your sperm, by all means go right ahead. If it improves your IMA, super job! Good for you! I don't mean to be disrespectful to those who subscribe to such measures or enquire about them, but I do believe that throwing sexuality as a component of one's training is really up to the individual. Try it and if it works for you, good. If it doesn't, try masturbating or having sex and see where that takes you.

I am of the opinion that if you want to get good at your art, you have to train hard or perhaps harder. If you respect Tim that much, maybe you should take his answer or response for what it's worth.

   By Debo (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:30 pm: Edit Post

O.K, for just to see where people stand and this goes for Tim as well. If you practice IMA's, Chi Kung, Meditaion, with effort,and You found out that preserving sprem in fact increases Chi circulation and emition, those of you who would preserve there sperm say I.

   By Spinal_Wave (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:44 pm: Edit Post

Why would I care about Chi circulation or emission? I'm concerned with issuing force in the most efficient manner, and judging by some of the legendary IMA masters, neither chi nor celebacy enters into that equation.

It's not like its a cold, hard equation that celebacy will make your kung fu better, anyway.

   By Zing (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 06:37 pm: Edit Post

What you just had said shows how much you know about internal martial arts, and every one is now stupider because they read you posting. Please do not write about internal arts, or mention anything about internal arts again. Thank You


   By ZING (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 06:38 pm: Edit Post


   By Kenneth Sohl on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 07:37 pm: Edit Post

I dunno, after a good long , I feel kinda ragged. Maybe you guys who don't think you've "expended your chi" should try to develop some staying power. Rumbrae, get real, do you really expect intelligent adults to formulate ideas from a book filled with pirated babylonian myths and obsolete political jabberwocky about some guy claiming to be the "son of God"?? Apparently, "God" doesn't believe in conserving his "chi", eh? (just ask the "virgin" Mary, heheh)

   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 09:48 pm: Edit Post

Ken, you're right on the staying power thing. Remember, marathoners are generally older than sprinters. Many of these posters are kids, relatively. Where you and I old farts have the staying power for high volume, long term training, these kids who would 'fa jing' prematurely just arn't on the same level of 'spiritual' development.

   By FunJohn on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 09:51 pm: Edit Post

Zing - Spinal Wave has every right in the world to express his opinions. This board is provided expressly for that purpose. In fact, many people agree with his position - present company included.

In over 20 years of looking, I have not seen one credible demonstration of "Chi". I have observed some pretty amazing things, but nothing that cannot be explained by modern biology, physics, and mechanics. When it comes to the mystical stuff, all I've seen are a bunch of excuses as to why it didn't work.

Chi was an ancient peoples' way of describing that which they didn't understand. They knew that if you repeated certain movements over and over again, you became able to do them as second nature. Today, we call this "muscle memory", and it is developed in every repetitive physical endeavor.

They also knew that certain postures and positions gave tremendous balance and striking power when practiced and refined (key words being practiced and refined). They were unaware of the interaction between the brain, nerves, and muscles, and believed that some unseen force or energy was affecting the results. Today, we know that it is physically possible to cultivate balance, strength, and speed that appears almost supernatural through proper training. We understand that if the brain, nerves, and muscles are given repeated like instruction, reaction times will decrease dramatically, strength will increase, and performance will accelerate.

They also knew that you could develop greater speed and power in a relaxed state. Meditation to develop an unseen force? They thought so, but in reality the focus, concentration, and relaxation combined to improve their athletic performance.

Why can Tim, with little-or-no apparent movement whatsoever, drive my 175 lb. frame across 14 feet of mat with such velocity that my feet don't touch the ground? Is it "Chi"?... No. It is the creation of force that starts in the feet, moves in a rolling motion through the hip, expands through the spine in a "wave", and is expended through the arm in perfect allignment and application. Looks like magic to the uninitiated or superstitious, but it is not. It is perfect physics and alignment.

It is physically impossible for people to move other people without physical contact. It is physically impossible for people to fly without artificial means. It is physically impossible to generate power beyond that your body can create through the skeletal, muscular, and nervous systems.

Breaking bricks or rocks? Perfect, concentrated application of power.

Lack of pain? Deadened nerve endings from repeated trauma or pain receptors "programmed" to no longer react to the stimuli.

Inability to move a "rooted" person? We've all seen the demos... Only works on one plane. Hit or push them at a 90 degree angle to their demonstration stance, and watch them fly...

Disrupting a flame from a distance with a horizontal hand strike? Perfect linear motion and speed forces a column of air ahead of the hand movement. Bullets do the same thing - many times the flesh is penetrated by compressed air, creating an entry wound before the projectile ever strikes.

And so it goes... I say practice your forms, train with real people so you lean to apply them, meditate for relaxation, and become the best IMA practitioner you want to be. With practice and dedication, you will be able to do what seems impossible to the layperson, all without mysticism or arcane practices. With any luck at all, 200 years down the road people will be discussing you and "chi" in the same breath.

   By THE (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 01:35 am: Edit Post

Well justified explanation of your thoughts.

   By ZING (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 01:43 am: Edit Post

Tim is all what Fun John said true, and is there no such thing as Chi?

   By Spinal_Wave (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 03:12 am: Edit Post

Zing, is English your first language? Because, as I said "Why would I care about Chi circulation or emission?". I'm not disputing the possible existance of Chi (though I find the concept a bit too nebulous to have the definitive answer you seem to read into it), but I have yet to see a living, fighting master attribute his or her success to both chi and celebacy.

Furthermore, you're a bit confused by fact and opinion and their particular roles in a conversation or as rhetorical devices. If you wish to make claims like you're an authority on the matter, you MUST produce credentials. It's not a matter of you disagreeing with a scientific paradigm or anything like that, it's more like you having difficulty arguing without coming across as a brainwashed cultist. Refine your argument and your insults and get back to me when you've made them both tolerable.

Hell dude, if you're so convinced you know God's own truth in this matter, why don't you go prostelytize to Su Dong Chen? I'm sure he'd be tickled pink at some wet-behind-the-ears internet schmuck telling him how he could tripple his martial power vis a vis not getting any.

(Besides, didn't many of the famous Taiji masters have children? So much for celebacy playing a central role in IMAs, huh?)

   By rumbrae (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 04:36 am: Edit Post


Rambling ideas but hope it helps.

First of all the question is whether or not chi does exist. That's another conversation. But if you do believe or know then the next questions are how does it work and how can I use it for MA?

Until you reach a higher level you have to work to build qi. One way to build qi is standing practice, which so many here are familiar with. Do you really think that if you have to work to build qi you can never lose it or waste it or just use it? One way to lose qi is sex.

Last time I will state it - I never advocated celibacy, you can have as much sex as you want. However, if one wants to realize more chi than he has, he needs to build it up more than he uses it.

Each person's body is different, they both build qi up and use it in different quantities and rates. Each person needs to know themselves so that they know they are building faster than losing. How different is this than any sport?

Sperm is not chi but chi is in sperm. Qi is in every cell in your body. The orgasm releases and sends chi. To do this it gathers it from other places and transforms it into the type that is required to provide conception with the best possible start. Afterwards further transformation is carried out to rebalance the chi throughout the body, and requires some transformation. Each cell and organ that is different uses chi in different ways and there are different types of chi in the body. Transformation requires energy, just like any law of physics will tell you, its inefficient. How do I know this? I feel it, its my own experience.

However, you can learn practices that eliminate those inefficiencies to be able to move chi throughout and outside of the body easily. A higher level is once this is accomplished one can then tap into the univeral qi for a fast recharge, transmit to others without persoanl loss, etc. There is no fa jing or any other MA movement required. But if you wanted you could integrate this with MA, which requires more work.

Once you build up enough chi you will begin to notice and learn certain things about it - how it affects your body, and mind, how it flows not just inside your body but outside of your body, even how it flows between two bodies, touching or not. There are so many different factors that will affect your sensation of it like drinking hot tea before or after build up, what time of day, how hard you did cardio, how fast you heal, before and after sex, how loss and build affects injuries, old ones new ones, how it flows based on how you hold all the different parts of your body,for example just crossing your arms, etc. the list is endless.

MA is all about seeking TRUTH. Take TaiChi forms - one is striving to do the correct movement for example, but how do you know that? In the beginning the movement is with the body, mainly physical. Eventually as one progresses the movement becomes more governed by the mind and less physical. But one has learned enough to realize that he is still searching for the TRUTH. A higher level is that the TRUTH of the form or correct movement is guided by qi. Qi guides the body if you let it. If one is sensitive and knows how to listen properly it is actually a very powerful force. You will discover qi guiding you into movements that you did not know before, but all will feel correct. This is just one small aspect.

Take this one small aspect and now apply it to push hands. Imagine your potential if now you can feel the qi in another person's body as well as the interaction between the two. You have arrived at the ultimate that Sun Tze spoke of, knowing both your enemy and yourself. Even more so, you have learned how to delfect 1000 lbs with 4 ounces.

This is completely beyond pure physical fighting, on a different level. It requires a teacher who knows all this and can guide you in it. Ma speaks very well along the same topic, from a bagua perspective, in his own words.

If you can't relate you don't know and haven't been taught. It is rare indeed.

Fighting by its very nature is competitive. Competitiveness is what has watered down MA. Fighting requires many forms of knowledge and to be a goodfighter the best focus is to fight. It is rare to find an IMA who can fight well and even more rare to find one knows just as much about qi.

The other aspect of qi is once you really start to have it you will discover so many wonderful things about it. People in MA use chi for a purpose but chi doesn't have a MA purpose. Qi has so many other purposes. When you have qi as your own experience then you will have less interest in fighting and so many other interests. That is why there are so few people who really "have it" that care about fighting.

Qi is really just the start, imagine what you could do in your life with both chi and a good heart. IMA says the mind guides the chi but what guides the mind? Its the heart. So your real overall level of attainment is determined by your heart. That's spirituality.

So, you don't need to go to China, learn from lineage IMA holders, read chinese, enter sport fighting competitions and study canons of daoist books to know this, learn this, and make it your own. All one needs is a good teacher and solid practice.

   By rumbrae (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 05:09 am: Edit Post

Spinal Wave,

Read the posts.

Have you read Ma's article on Jarek's site? He's a qi buff and appears to be somewhat close to being celibate.

He has never farted around with mere sport fighting. A controlled environment, one on one, no weapons, phsycological and physical warmup allowed, soft clean floor, fixed size ring, proper clothes, predictable skills and techniques, chance to study your opponent ahead of time, and the list goes on.

Bare handed and alone Ma has dealt with on a regular basis in reality on the street against more than one opponent and quite often with opponents who have weapons. This was his job, day after day for many many years. Proof is in his police reports. He is well known. His students are top personal government bodyguards.

From Su Dong Chen and Tim Cartmell I have only heard "so what are the higher levels, I'm still waiting..." - is that the best they can do? There is NO comparison to Ma.

What are you training for, a chance to prance in revealing tights in front of a crowd?


   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 10:45 am: Edit Post

Fun John: Well said.

Not too many years ago, when it was discovered that rifling a gun barrel made it more accurate, people did not know why that occured. It was known that the rifling caused the bullet to rotate while in flight. Some great thinkers decided that demons sat upon the bullets in flight which caused them to be pushed off course. When the bullets spun rapidly because of the rifling, the demons could not remain seated, thus the bullets would fly true to the target. There are similarities here with the concept of 'chi'.

There are so varied concepts of what chi is and what its' properties are that they cannot all be true. Much of it is the attempt to explain things which were not well understood. I suspect that Mister Ma got good results while using the traditional formula for training and saw no reason to change it or explore why he got those results. It seems that a good part of some training is like a witches brew, it works because of the inclusion of medicinal herbs, but has a lot of other unnecessary junk thrown in as well. The user knows that it works, but not why or how it works. Their explaination of why it works can become somewhat fanciful.

   By Ian Powell on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 12:13 pm: Edit Post

That was a rich posting regarding Qi. And at 1 in the morning! It creates these questions for me: Is interacting with Qi a matter of belief or a matter of perception? ie. Do you have to believe in Qi as you would 'God' or can you perceive Qi as you would 'water' or 'physics' ? Also would be helpful: some illustration of your experience. What does high Qi feel like? Low Qi? Also: When you experience high Qi, what is Qi, and not Qi? ie. If you can perceive something enough to call it 'Qi', you are distinguishing it from something else-- What is this something else? thanks!

   By BAIHE (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 12:20 pm: Edit Post

"Bare handed and alone Ma has dealt with on a regular basis in reality on the street against more than one opponent and quite often with opponents who have weapons."

So have guys who have sex! Su Dong Chen, Hung Yiseng, Chang Chao Tung, Wang Shu Jin, Zhang Zhan Feng?

What's the point? Do you think Ma is more skilled than any of the aforementioned?

   By BAIHE (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 12:22 pm: Edit Post

"From Su Dong Chen and Tim Cartmell I have only heard "so what are the higher levels, I'm still waiting..." - is that the best they can do? There is NO comparison to Ma."

Is there? Have you played hands with Ma or the rest of these guys?

   By Spinal_Wave (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 12:34 pm: Edit Post


I'm still bemused why anyone would take the advice of one man, over the empirical evidence of many talented (and non-sport) fighters.

Yes, I've read the Ma article on Jarek's site. However, I'm more inclined to look to the advice given by the fighting masters that Baihe mentioned, simply because there was more of them who agree that sex is good than not. (And for the record, if you think Su Dong Chen was/is a sport fighter, you've got to get out more.)

Odd that most people with just as much experience in real combat completely disagree with Ma...