http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1999/jan99/dec.html

WHat do you think?

well- he is right in saying too many practicioners only learn a bit and then go on and teach only that little bit to their students, dilluting the art.

The rest of it seems really stupid. Erle has his head gutting out ahead of his body and his shoulders raised as high as possible in the pictures of him with the wooden-man. And looks like he's leaning backwards slightly.

The series of Erle and the other guy are about the gayist thing I've seen in a long time. The art of overkill? That's new to me. I could be wrong here, but isn't "Kata" a Japanese term?

Erle seems to be sufering from the exact problem he's complaining others suffer from. I think he's a scam artist.

You asked- and that's my opinion.

I second that, i've seen some of his tapes on taiji (my own background). After about 15 minutes i decided to invite some friend and get some beers, he's hilarious. But although his practical understanding of the principles of the art seem pretty much abscent, he does seem to have studies with someone who did understand. I've seen some taiji duida (2 person sets) performed by him that - although performed horribly - where quite unique..

I have trained with Erle in person and studied his videos for many years; his taiji and pa-kua styles are hardly mainstream but they certainly are effective.

While I don't always agree with his marketing methods, I haven't met too many internal martial artists who could actually use their methods against a spontaneous attack (and without hurting the attacker) as well as he can.

Erle is also is very able in helping others to learn the skills that he possesses. Again this is a rarity in the internal martial arts as teaching others requires a different set of skills/apptitudes than those used to execute skills like being balanced and relaxed.

Erle is also an interesting human being with a family that he loves and a variety of interests ... all attributes that are often sadly lacking in "internet warriors". Oh, and he doesn't usually insult people at long distance if he doesn't know them.

I'me sure erle is a wonderful human being and maybe even an effective fighter, but that doesn't make him what he pretends to be; a master in taiji etc.. I've seen a number of real taiji masters (my own teacher - Fei Yuliang - for example is recognized in china as a taiji master and was a personal student with the Yang and Chen family, as was his father), and what Erle does is something completely different. I'me not talking about forms, everyone can learn a form, i'me talking about the way he moves and applies his 'art'.

I think the insults you find here are not a consequence of bad character, but a natural reaction. I think that if you have such a lack of quality (which is very, very apparent for everybody that has seen quality) and you advertise yourself as a master, you are bound to get laughed at.

Michael Babin, some time back, I had posted a question about Montague's abilities, so I find your response to the attacks on his reputation interesting. It does seem like the net is full of people who dabble in MAs as a "hobby" for a few years, then consider themselves experts able to point out the "faults" of those who practice differently. And you are quite right in pointing out that exploitative business practices do not necessarily indicate lack of ability. This board has some extremely intelligent posters, but CIMAs seem to be exceptionally nitpicky when arguing over irrelevant details that "prove" whether a particular practitioner is a master or a fraud.

Thers's some joke.. 'How many Tai Chi teachers does it take to...? the answer is' One to do it and 99 to say he's doing it wrong'.

I find that very true here in the west, in china to a lesser extent. Contrary to here, there are a number of masters in China that are pretty widely accepted and have high standing in the martial arts community over there. I keep them in mind as a reference for how it should aproximately be like (keeping differences in style in mind). Let's not forget there are huge differences in skill level and a lot of bullshitartist around, everyone who's read a book can say he's a taijimaster.

So if you can find some reliable standard, yes, you'll find loads of taiji teachers are doing it wrong... I personally find erle one of them..

Watch his videos on bagua on his site. He walks the circle like a beginner for balance and whole body power is not there.

This article which calls a "typical bagua defence sequence" where he machineguns his partner, where's the bagua? Did I miss it?

No, its just "earle" doing his trademark reptilian response followed by some "earle" dim mak and an elbow to the head, all rooted in one spot and straight down the guy's centerline. Maybe he should call it wing chun and claim that its taoist...

Also interesting is that only when bagua becomes more popular today does earle market he is a master, his article claims he learned bagua decades ago.

;)

mx, It is true that there are frauds, if one is familiar with the type of art they practice, then one can generally see their falseness. I am totally unfamiliar with combat taiji. At the same time, taiji seems to have more arguments and opinionated practitioners than just about anything else (bagua being a close second). If you have attained some degree of skill in taiji principles (and I have no reason to doubt your word) then you shouldn't mind being "put on the spot" so to speak about an informed opinion on Mr Montague, for I would like to learn more without chasing wild geese. I take it then that you consider him a fraud?

Every "famous" expert that I have met and respect (Yang Jwing-ming, Liang Shu-you; Sam Masich, Mike Sigman, William C.C.Chen as well as Erle) have been slandered at some point on this and other internet discussion boards. It's easy to whine at a safe distance "Oh, so-and-so, isn't really any good -- my teacher told me that so it must be true; or "I read it on a discussion board" or "Gee, he does it differently from the way I'm used to so it must be incorrect".

Life is short and, if one of the definitions, of an authentic version of taiji is the ability to use that art in a convincing martial manner than all of those that I mentioned have the right to define themselves as experts -- even though they all do taiji differently -- sometimes quite differently.

In the end, we all have a right to our opinions on who has more skill/experience in the internal arts but it's sad to see how the discussion frequently slides into name-calling from those who profess to be adults.

Martial arts can be extremely political. My old sifu used to get a lot of slander behind his back but, tellingly, never to his face. I like the Yin Fu master's quote on the "traditional studies" website: "do not tell me how great your style is, for if I beat you, I am better than you. I will not tell you how long I have studied, for if I have studied for 10 years, you have beaten me after one day of study, then you are better than me." (or words to that effect) In the past, I too, have made my opinions known about fraudulent practitioners of my family of styles. Now, I realize that it is useless. Those who already know don't need to hear it, and those who don't know have no reason to believe me. The rest will believe what they want.

you friggin cry babies. Roy asked what 'you' thought about the article and pictures. One person gave his opinion, a second agreed and the rest of this thread is nothing but sissies whining about how someone gave an opinion which somehow slandered Erle friggin' Montique.

I think that article and those pictures are splendid. Erle's willingness to share Ba Gua Dim Mach to use against rampaging homosexuals is top notch stuff. You need to be prepared to handle yourself if ever attacked leaving a Justin Timberlake concert.

Um....yes, quite.

I realize it's useless kenneth, and i agree with your assesment of the taiji community, thats why i refer to these mainland chinese masters. if someone says he practices yang style but he's doing something completely different from what the Yang family still does, that's at least strange..

So if you want to be sure and don't have useless discussions (I - of course - could be full of •••• too), go back to the source, it's as simple as that. Then take a look at erle again..

Michael,
Who were Erle's Baguazhang teachers? He doesn't mention anyone by name in the article. Thanks.

Erle was born and raised in England even though he has lived in Australia for the last few decades. He learned the core forms and training methods of both the pakua and the taiji that he teaches from his main teacher Chu Kin-hung in the early days while both were living in London in the early 70s.

Chu (who still teaches taiji and qigong in Europe and also has a "mixed" reputation although no-one doubts that he was Sau-chung's official representative) had also learned a variation of Gao-style pa-kua from Ho Ho-choy (also known as He Ke-cai) in Hong Kong prior to immigrating to England as well as the Yang-style with Yang Sau-chung (Cheng-fu's oldest son) in the same era.

Erle, like many teachers, has evolved his own pa-kua training methods over the years; but the forms that he still teaches are much as they were when I first saw them in the late 1980s. One of his first books, on both taiji and pakua, was first published in 1984. He is hardly "jumping on the bandwagon" just because pa-kua is now becoming fashionable in North America.

mx, hope you don't think I was singling you out. I was trying to convey how hopeless it is for me, in my lack of understanding, to try and form any kind of opinion without, as you say, going to the source myself. However, bear in mind that nothing remains in stasis, everything either improves or deteriorates, and in martial arts, sometimes evolution occurs among unorthodox practitioners who end up bearing a marked disimiliarity from their teachers in their movements. Do you think there is any possibility of such happening here? When one masters 2 arts, his/her movements generally tend to favor the principles of one over the other, or end up blending the two into one. I'm wondering if perhaps he doesn't look like, say, his taiji teachers because he has also internalized bagua, while they have not(?). Just a thought.

No, I understand you're position kenneth.

I've seen a lot of marked disimiliarities with students from their teachers in their movements, mainly because these teachers used to train 6 to 8 hours a day while their students would do an hour a day at most. My own teacher used to train push hands 3 hours a day, if i'me lucky i can do 2 hours a week. I do move differently.. I think the arts are generally deteriorating, but maybe this is not always bad, if we're lucky it deteriorates in a system that is more suitable (which is of course by definition evolution...).

Cross training on the other hand is nothing new, most skilled masters in the old days knew different styles, internal and external. Internal stylist have been very actively cross training the last 100 years, so i don't expect any dramatic changes from someone who learned bagua end then starts learning taiji or the other way around.

I think Tim trains about 6-8 hours a day and push hands about 3 hours. Is this correct Tim?