In the Gao style,it is my understanding that the swimming body hsien tien training is taught near the end of the system.My question to practicioners of this style

Are the teachers teaching this swimming body training generously and liberally or is it being witheld?

I know that my question is oversimplified,but I would appreciate general and specific responses.

Seems like a good question. I'm no where near the end so I can't comment. Do you think some teachers are withholding it?

I think that sometimes people can be very
mercenary in their aproach to teaching/sharing
knowledge.so this may be why it takes so long or the person doesn't know this really and is stalling and or maybee selfish or it's just the dogma that's been used in the past to control
the transmission of the art.

As a nascent ba gua practitioner I can offer two observations. First, just learning how to perform the basic palm changes while maintaining alignment and proper footwork is no easy task. This is only the first stage. The second stage is using the linked form method where there is less conscious attention to these details and more of an effort to just smooth out the movements so that there is no obvious expression of power. The swimming body method is the third stage of development, and is only taught and practiced when the first two stages have been mastered.

Having said this, Luo lashi demonstrated all three methods of the palm changes and discussed what it is one is striving to do when training at this level at the three day clinic I attended(the clinic was actually 5 days, the last two were dedicated to Xing I and chi kung).

I believe it is less a case of mercenary withholding of knowledge and more the case that even showing someone how to do something like the swimming body method is useless until that person is actually at the stage of development where he might actually be able to perform or pratice this method.

I would agree with Walter regarding the stages of training in Gaoshi Baguazhang. I sometimes think of Bagua as Jazz music with swimming body being improvisation. One needs to learn rhythm, harmony, melody, etc. before embarking on improvisation, thus the first two stages. That being said investigate the use of the waist in movement and power origination where the body may be moving in multiple directions at once. I'd like to hear Tim's views as he is senior here.

Buddy

In most variations of the Cheng system of Ba Gua Zhang, students go through the three stages of training (fixed step, linked step and swimming body) in order. The logic is as you describe, it is necessary to lay a good foundation before progressing to more advanced studies. The swimming body level is quite difficult and in most cases involves the torso and limbs moving in three different directions while coordinated around the movements of the hips. It would be extremely difficult to learn without simpler basic training.
Most teachers believe that once a student is proficient at the linked step variations of the forms and techniques, they already have a sufficient foundation to fight well.

By linked step do you mean; a series of palm changes and or techniques rearranged in order
so as to teach coordination,balance,combinations,
etc.?

Such as single palm then say the 4th palm change
of any given style,then another say 2nd,then 7th,
etc.?I.E. a series of palm changes rearranged in order?

I also agree as to the idea of basics first then growth following.But the teacher should not be
withholding the knowledge if the student can grow
at say an faster rate than others because of
prior training in arts.I believe that far too
many schools/teachers are very mercanary in there
thought's as to teaching.

P.S. to say one has mastered something is a falacy
I think.Live to old,Train to old.Right?

Fixed Step Ba Gua Zhang form practice involves doing each movement of the form slowly and carefully, with a pause at the completion of each movement to check alignment and reinforce the feeling of the movement and posture in the muscle memory before moving on to the next position.

Linked Step Ba Gua Zhang form practice is done in a more continuous manner with very slight pauses mainly during changes in direction. The forms are 'linked' together.

Swimming Body Ba Gua Zhang form practice is done in a completely continuous manner so that the steps and movement, especially the movement of the hips never stops (changes in direction are done in non-stop curves and circles).

Tim,
Thankyou for clearing this up for me.As I currently have only my memory and myself to
train with often,that open kindness helps.

Ba Gua Zhang has recently caught both my attention and fancy, so the question I have is this-in responce to a querie from Anonymous, Dave C states,¨I'm no where near the end,¨-so if there is in fact and end to this type of training regimen, where does the beginning lie for someone inexperienced and who is rather isolated from the rest of the world. (I live deep in Mexico, any recommended texts?)
Thanks

Hi Gerdy,

Two books you might want to check into are:
"Pa Kua" by Robert W. Smith (good, small, cheap)
"Effortless Combat Throws" by Tim Cartmell (lots of Baguazhang throwing techniques and some more general information for all internal arts practice)

Take a look at www.plumpub.com for VCDs and DVDs and stuff from China.

Richard