'Imperial Palace' Bagua????

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : 'Imperial Palace' Bagua????
   By Steve Pang on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 12:55 pm: Edit Post

Has anyone ever heard of imperial palace bagua? Master Gong Zhong Xiang teaches this style in Monterey Park in addition to Taiji and Hsing-I. There's also David Bond Chan in New York, but he calls it "Inside Palace Bagua'. Does anyone know anything about these instructors or their style? on Gong's website it says Dong Hai Chuan himself modified bagua to become 'imperial palace' after being hired by the emperor.


   By marco caruso on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 04:30 pm: Edit Post

hi, i know the teacher of gong zhong xiang(WANG ZHUANG FEI), he was a real legend in Cina;the same about Wang Han Zhi(WANG ZHUANG FEI's son);they were called "bagua er Wang",that is a wordsgame using their surename and mean "the two kings of bagua";
about Gong Zhong Xiang i can't say nothing;i visited his site, but in the fotos he's not so good.
The name imperial...is invented by gong zhong xian,maybe to distingue it form the other style of bagua, that are very different.
the real name of the bagua of WANG ZHUANG FEI is only BaGuaZhang, because was not modified by nobody in is lineage.

for more visit www.baguazhang.it

   By Mauro Sgroi on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 10:08 am: Edit Post

Hi Marco,
do you follow Master Zhang Dugan's courses in italy? I'm wondering about the similarities between the Gong Zhong Xiang's and Zhang Dugan's baguazhang. I think master Zhang is an inner door student of Wang Zhuang Fei. The 8 palms of Gong Zhong Xiang and Zhang Dugan, from what I can guess from their home page, are the same.
Do you know if there is some eductational material on this branch of baguazhang?
Thanks a lot,

   By marco caruso on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 04:45 pm: Edit Post

dear Mauro,
i study with the G.M.Zhang from 1996.
Yes, Master Zhang Du Gan was like a son for Wang Zhuang Fei. He studied with Wang Han Zhi(Wang Zhuang fei's son) for 10 years then, Master Wang Zhuang fei wanted Zhang under his teaching(for other 10 years).
Today in the world the successor is G.M.Wang Han Zhi then, there is Zhang Du Gan.
Yes, the 8 palms are the same because Gong Zhong Xiang was Wang Zhuang Fei's student too but,there is something no good in his site: the swords for exemple, are not used in original BaGua(Dong Hai Chuan didn't use swords;Yin Fu didn't use swords); another one is that he didn't written Wang Han Zhi in the lineage(it is very bag, because all Wang Zhuang Fei' students knew that his son was the successor).
In last, his palms are not very good.(but i repeat that i've never saw him moving).
For the last question Mauro, in the site there is some educational material..i try to convince the master to do some sample video, but he doesn't want.(i'm sure that i will convince him). you will be the first to know it.

   By Mauro Sgroi on Friday, February 04, 2005 - 01:51 pm: Edit Post

Dear Marco,
thanks a lot for the information.
I will contact you by private e-mail.

   By Mark P. (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 02:06 am: Edit Post

Hello Marco do you guys do 64 palms and 72 kicks?
Chan Internal does but Imperial bagua seems to do many different sets also they do Tai-chi and Hsing-I maybe that's where the swords come from.
If you dont mind can you post your teachers curriculum? TIA

   By marco caruso on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 04:01 am: Edit Post

hi mark,i'm sorry to respond you now!
Tai-chi and hsing-i are very different from Bagua.
Often the internal stiles are teached together,but it's not right! Someone thinks that who do more martial arts is stronger,but this is silly! So they arrive to do all but in BAD way.(at 99%)
If I have understood you think that the sword's forms came from other stiles.
YOU ARE RIGHT! I've written to Gong zhoung xiang..there is the original mail that they sended me!...
"Good to hear from you, Marco Causo.

To answer your question about Bagua Sword. Master Gong Zhong Xiang learned the sword from another Xing Yi and Bagua teacher, Chu Gwei Ting.
Grand Master Wang is truely amazing.
Please our regard to your teacher
Master Zhang Du Gan.

Quan Jing Shun
Senior Diciple of Master Gong"
So he learned this forms from another teacher that didn't came from GONG BAO TIEN's lineage!!!!Why they put the sword's forms under the page of Wang Zhuang Fei in the"imperial bagua" site???
No No No it's very strange! Gong Zhong Xian is Chinese, and he knows that someone in Shangai can get angry for this.
In any case..About my master Zhang Du Gan, you can find something in our site!


   By Jon M. (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 12:25 pm: Edit Post

I am one of Master Gong's students, and can say from personal experience that his kung fu is first rate. It is pretty cheap to attempt to discredit a Master that you know absolutely nothing about. This is obviously just another vain attempt to prove "my sifu is better than your sifu," and I hope that nobody on this board pays heed to the previous statements made about Master Gong.

   By hackbuster (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 02:22 pm: Edit Post

Gong is a hack! The only think he's got going is that he is Chinese and he's got the costume.

   By Ted (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 02:15 pm: Edit Post

I have attended Gong's class once, and have also sparred briefly with one of his former student of 9 years who happens to be in my Tai Chi class. The student was able to spar with me using Bagua and hold his own. I'm no flunky, and have won Shotokan tournaments and such... Bagua is not an easy art to teach, and to have a student who can fight in that style is exceptional.

   By Jerry on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 05:25 pm: Edit Post

I have attended Master Gong's class for one month (a while ago), I know who Ted is, and I know who the other guy is, let's call him Fred. Ted, Fred and I have Chen style classes together.

Fred's a pretty impressive guy. I wouldn't doubt for a second that he can actually fight, or spar (not the same thing).
I don't know if he studied only Gong's bagua; I rather doubt it.

The reason I didn't continue with Master Gong's class was that it was rather expensive, and structured in such a way that it wasn't a very good deal; and it wasn't a very good learning environment for me. The reason Fred stopped after 9 years was that he felt the master was holding out on him, that he was not being taught the real stuff. Ted doesn't mention why he only went once, which seems like a fair question if he's so impressed. Ted, I think Fred's very impressive, but I'm not sure Master Gong's school should get all the credit.

Master Gong is over 80 years old and doesn't speak a word of English. Or Spanish, as far as I know. I'm not doubting that he may have been a great martial artist, maybe a great teacher, a few years ago. He really doesn't seem to be putting a lot of energy into teaching these days, from what I saw.

If you speak Chinese, and you have a lot of patience, and if Master Gong continues to teach for a few more years, and you don't mind paying $150/mo for years while getting only a few minutes a week of instruction, it might be OK.

He also has a pretty capable assistant, but I don't know if there are any plans for him to take over.

One Saturday nobody showed up except me, and this other new guy, a young Chinese guy who was studying xingyi (I was studying mainly bagua). The master showed up for about an hour out of the 3 or 4 hours we were there, and we each got maybe 5 minutes of instructor time. For over three hours, I walked the circle, which was all I had been taught. Not forms or anything, just lion step, hands behind back. The other guy, for that same period of time, stood in san ti shi.
I guess I decided after that that even if I could learn to fight by hanging around there for 9 years, it wasn't worth it; and if I want to walk the circle in slomo, or stand in san ti, for 3 hours, I could do that on my own, and get a lesson from Tim every few months if I need corrections.

I'm looking for increased flexibility and agility; I wouldn't mind learning to fight; but if I'm going to do something for 9 years, I want it to be enjoyable too; and for $150/mo I'd like to get some instruction, or the chance to meet cute chicks, or something, sheesh.

   By Ted Yu on Thursday, October 12, 2006 - 02:58 pm: Edit Post

Yes, "Fred" did train in Hungar for quite a few years in Taiwan. I don't think he trained for 9 years though, so most of his training is in Bagua with Master Gong.

His fighting stance was distinctly Bagua. I just remember standing there against him and saying..."what the f*** is this?".

Also, what do you think about the 2 new students in class? They also trained with Master Gong for a few years. From what I saw so far, I think their time with master Gong was well spent. One of them has an incredible grip. He said it was from the form training he did with Bagua. I also did push hands with both of them and it feels like some of the attributes they picked up doing Bagua translated to Tai Chi push hands.

Of course, like you said, they also left Imperial Bagua, which begs the question, "why did they all leave?". I can't really answer that question. Sorry you didn't feel your time was well spent there, but I'm glad you're enjoying the classes with your new Bagua instructor.

   By Jerry on Tuesday, October 17, 2006 - 12:43 pm: Edit Post


I hadn't looked on the board for quite a while, so I didn't see your question before.

I haven't seen enough of these two guys, nor am I necessarily qualified, nor would it be a good idea, to give an opinion. I wouldn't care for them to come on here and give their opinions about you and me :-|

"Fred" also said something, which I didn't really quite understand, about developing great strength from the circle walking with Master Gong. Made me wonder if I was too hasty.

As for everybody all leaving, I don't know. If they stayed a long time, and learned a lot, it must have been worth it. People don't usually stay with one teacher for their whole life anymore. Tim's school is one of the best, if not the best, that I've seen, but I left. Well, I got hurt, that's why I stopped going, but why didn't I go back? It's too far to drive, I got into other things, etc. But I'd highly recommend you check it out sometime; the Saturday morning bagua class is relatively convenient, and a good place to start. I may go back sometime myself, but not right now.

I'm actually about burned out on Su Zifang's bagua-- too much emphasis on form. I don't actually want to fight anyone, but if I'm going to do martial arts, I want them to have some recognizable connection with martial applications. I highly recommend SZF for movement skills, or if you actually want to compete in forms, or learn every form known to "ren"-kind, but I've done enough of that for right now.


   By Ted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 02:20 am: Edit Post

Yah, Tim's class is great. I checked it out one time and mean to go back. But it is kinda far from Pasadena.

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