I'm curious if anyone has seen these or trained with them. I can only find reference to them on the net, The story of Cheng pulling out his elbow knives and wading into a group of german soldiers during the Boxer Rebellion. Were they Butterfly knives similar to the wing chun ones flipped? Or more like daggers?Anyone??

Maybe they were the type of daggers with the wavey blades. (I think they are popular in the Philipines and maybe Indonesia) They wavey blade design helps the blades slide between bones and joints easier, making them more deadly against un-armored opponents. Of course I really don't know if these are the knives you are talking about but the entire "elbow" knife term makes me think of a somehow bent or waved blade.

From what I understand the elbow knives were long, curved blades that when held blade down had the tip of the knife extending just below the elbow, with the sharp edge facing away from the forearm.

Tim's right. I just did a google search. They are single sided knives that extend a few inches past the elbows when held with a reverse grip.

Thanks guys, funny how you can't find any pictures of them. I found one site by Jason Tsou, that says he teaches them but no photos. strange , maybe they are just an idea and you can use any blades that you like with the bagua principles? i'm guessing skinnier than the wing chun butterfly swords and alittle longer.

"An Introduction to Ba Gua Zhang Weapons" from "Pa Kua Chang Journal" Vol 6 No. 2:

Many of the Ba Gua specialty weapons are double short knives of various designs which could
be easily concealed in the practitioners coat. They were pulled out at the opportune moment and the Ba Gua practitioner used his characteristic turning,twisting and rotating motion to transform himself into a "human vegamatic."

What about the Bagua Needles? Would the fall into a general category of double short knives? I have not studied any Bagua weapons, just enjoying the thread and thought I would mention the needles sine I have read a couple of interesting articles about them.

Bagua needles do not fall into the category of double short knives. They are just what they are, oversized needles used in piercing and puncturing and of course blocking, deflecting and parrying. Sometimes they are called pens. As with anything there are also many variations to their form. Categorically they (knives and needles) are paired and weapons.