Tim,

Do you know much about the book "Yin Yang Ba Pan Zhang" or the art it covers? I have seen some photos from it and it looks interesting. Some claim it is Bagua's predecessor. Or has any body read this book? What are your thoughts?

It is said that Bapanzhang is the origin of baqua in that Dong's family initially learnt it in his village(village art) and as he (Dong) began being exposed to 'Daoist' influences (through his travelling) he changed running the circle to walking the circle along with addition of 'mud walking step'.

I have a copy of the "Yin Yang Bapanzhang" book.

The historian Kang Gewu's research led him to believe Bapanzhang and Dong Haichuan's Baguazhang were not related.

I believe the Baguazhang Journal indicated that Kang found that Bapanzhang was adapted from Dong's art.

Tim,

Would you recomend the book to a bagua enthusiast?

The story according to some is that the author of yin yang ba pan zhang's (Ren Zhi Cheng) teacher Mr Li was a class mate of dong hai chaun under dong menglin. Supposedly Li's teacher (menglin) did not have enouhg time to teach Li everything and told him if he wanted to learn more to search for a proponent in Beijing who was working at the palace (Dong Hai Chuan under a slightly different name?). He tried once but failed. Apparently Li was pretty awesome in his own right, his student Ren Zhi Ching trained in Hua Chuan as well as Ba Pan Zhang and was a formidible fighter. Ive heard he was better that a lot of dong hai chaun's students but you know how these stories go. The Ba Pan system involves alot of static posture work in the early stages (traditionally the first stance only for three years), a "modern" practitioner (ren wen zhu, ren zhi ching's nephew(?)) can be seen doing his thing in a video on Black Taoist.com, check out the shoulder articulation... wicked! And i think he is still teaching in we'nan. Thats just what I've heard though, and I don't know much!

Chad,
Not necessarily.

=== Practice is a good thing.
== I would, however, recommend that one should
practice without the BURDEN of a predetermined
goal. Such goals delimit the scope and spontaneous benefits one might otherwise unexpectedly find available.

"Delimit"? Does that get you any points in Scrabble?

The rest of your post was equally inane. Thanks for sharing.

Your total points = 0
Please come again when you're sober!

Peace

I don't believe Li Chen Ching Ever new Dong Hai Chuan. Where was it ever mentioned that Li ever met with one of Dong Hai Chuans students? The whole story was concocted by Ren.

There are too many point's that show this:

1st, According to Ren, Li's most outstanding student was Liu Bao Zhen.

A)
This is proven false by the fact that Liu was a student of Dong Hai Chuan. This was proven by the fact that Liu, if the order I have is correct, is DHC's 12th student,as depicted on the original tomb.

B)
It is also mentioned in Liu's home town records that he was the student of Dong Hai Chuan.

There is no mention of Li at all.

And as for ren being good himself, The pictures of him doing his postures are hot, but he ran from Sun Xi Kun. It was a mis-understanding, but that's besides the point.

He went to meet him because Sun's book had come out as he was writing his. He saw the simularity in there styles and went to talk with him about it. Sun thought it was a challenge. Ren got scared and left. They never met with each other.

According to the man that actually wrote the book for Ren, the reason for the name change to Ba Pan, was to seperate it froms Sun's book.

Just my 2cents

I have also been curious about Ba Pan Zhang recently, and was happy to find this discussion, and all the insight offered here.

I read Kang Ge Wu's chronology ("The
Spring & Autumn of Chinese Martial Arts") and find it a useful
reference. I have heard he wrote a more conclusive dissertion on Bagua's origins, but I've also heard that his research was disputed, and he may have fabricated some of his research. I would of course like to read his article regarding
Bagua's origins, and any other references which validate or
invalidate his research. His book ("The Spring & Autumn of Chinese
Martial Arts") doesn't offer many details regarding roots of Bagua Zhang/'Zhuan-Zhang', just a couple
paragraphs.

I have read & heard several inferences that Dong Hai Chuan
invented Bagua Zhang (or at least what's been later renamed as Bagua
Zhang).
Making comparisons of the various branches of Bagua-Zhang/'Zhuan-
Zhang' to better understand the root of what Dong Hai Chuan taught
only lends credence to the refined genius of the art & all it's
variations. So much so, that it makes me speculate that maybe--just
maybe--Dong Hai Chuan wasn't lying about having Taoist
teachers who taught him some Taoist Folk-martial arts which
influenced what he taught as 'Zhuan Zhang' in Beijing. Why is it so
implausible that Dong Hai Chuan had other Taoist martial arts
teachers?

Due to the depth of the similar core principles shared by the
various branches of "Bagua Zhang" makes me speculate that the roots
of the system may be quite old, likely developed over a long period
of time, through several generations of teachers and students, and
perhaps a conglomerate of several older systems--instead of invented
by one person with only a Shaolin Lohan background. Also,
considering how Taoist Clergy (Monks, Hermits, Priests, etc)
practice some form(s) of martial arts as part of thier devotion
lends credence to the possiblity that Dong borrowed from other
systems. This seems to me more logical than Bagua being just a radical variation
of Shaolin Lohan that only one man invented, after learning some
esoteric medition method ("Circling to Worship Heaven"). My
speculation is that there's a missing link in the Zhuan-Zhang/Bagua-
Zhang history, perhaps several missing links, and that perhaps many
of the other arts that influenced Dong Hai Chuan have been lost to
the sands of time.

This is why the premise of Ren Zhi Cheng's book, "Yin-Yang Ba Pan
Zhang" sounds so intriguing to me, perhaps it is some evidence of
the wellspring that Dong Hai Chuan learned from. If Ba Pan Zhang is
just a variation of Liu style of Bagua Zhang, why would Ren Zhi
Cheng invent the different lineages? Why would he invalidate Liu
style Bagua to create fictional characters, if he did invent his origin-story of Bagua Zhang/Ba Pan Zhang? Maoshan's story about Ren Zhi Cheng & Sun Xi Kun's affiliation (or avoidance) is interesting, could you share more details of this story or where it came from? On that note, any further
information on Liu Bao Zheng and current practitioners of his
lineage would also be appreciated.

Do any of you have other video or book references to Liu style
Bagua or to Ba Pan Zhang? Better yet, anyone
here study Liu style Bagua Zhang, and/or Ba Pan Zhang that could
offer more substantial (first hand) information?

Since the details of Bagua's history are clouded in legend,
fable, bad memory, and elusive secrets, I guess we'll never be absolutely certain of the specific origins of the art. While irrelevant to some, I find that sometimes trying to know the source a bit better may help
understand the hows, whys & wherefores of the training we labour
over daily.

Thanks, again, everyone, this is very interesting.

Sincerely,
Dennis Mace