Circular form of Chiang Jung Chiao

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Circular form of Chiang Jung Chiao
   By komitann (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 11:24 am: Edit Post

I was told that the postures in circular form of Chiang Jung Chiao, are corresponding to the trigrams. Is it true and if so what is the correspondence? Here are some suggestions. I have come to this after a lot of digging and if someone knows Iíll be grateful if he corrects me where Iím wrong
Chien
LEANING ON THE HORSE, ASKING THE WAY; FIERCE TIGER JUMPS OUT; THRUSTING FINGERS WITH FOOT SLAPPING STEP; GRAB OPPONENT FROM HORSE; TIN WONG HOLDS STATUE; LION POUNCES ON BALL; LION OPENS MOUTH; SERPENT TRIES TO COIL UP

Kun
MONKEY SPITS FOOD; PANG (A LARGE MYTHOLOGICAL BIRD) SPREADS WINGS;

Li
PURPLE SWALLOW THROWS FAN; TAKE PERSON'S HEAD AND PLACE ON YOUR OWN; WHITE SNAKE TWISTS BODY; PIGEON ALONE FLIES TO HEAVEN; CLIMB THE GREAT MOUNTAIN; CLIMB THE GREAT MOUNTAIN; SWEEP THE 1000 ENEMY; PIGEON RIGHTS ITSELF; HAWK POSTURE; LION ROLLS OVER TO GET UP

Chen
TRANSFER FLOWER, CONNECT TO WOOD; JADE LADY (NUN) OFFERS FOOD; PART THE CLOUDS WHICH OBSTRUCT THE WAY; PUSH THE MOUNTAIN INTO THE SEA; DRAGON TWISTS WAIST; FOLLOW THE MOTION OF ONE'S CLOTHES; RHINOCEROS LOOKS AT MOON; SHOOT BOW ON HORSEBACK

Sun
FLOWER HIDES UNDER LEAF; MONKEY SITS IN CAVE TO EAT THE FRUIT; LION ROLLS BALL; ACTING LIKE A WILD HORSE

Kan
CLOSE THE DOOR, PUSH THE MOON; HOLD THE MOON IN YOUR BREAST; DUCK LANDS ON WATER; BAT DROPS TO EARTH; PYTHON SPITS VENOM; GOLDEN SERPENT TWISTS AROUND WILLOW TREE;

Ken
BLACK BEAR TURNS BACK;BLACK BEAR FEELS WAY

For this one I havenít come to a conclusion,to which trigram it goes FLOCK OF WILD GEESE BURSTS OUT

The name of the postures are taken from the book of Erle Montaigue


   By fren (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 04:17 pm: Edit Post

Go and study with Erle as he is the Master. Only he can answr your questions.


   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 06:21 pm: Edit Post

Park Bok Nam also says that this type of study is of much less importance that being able to do and use the movements.


   By komitann (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 05:27 am: Edit Post

Thank you for your immediate answer.
The problem is that I don't train with teacher. I work alone following books and video. I know that this is not right but where i live (Sofia,Bulgaria) there aren't any schools for BaGua. This particular form is taken from the book of Erle Montaigue and his video. He unfortunately doesn't explain the connection between the trigrams and the form. At first my question was how the trigrams correspond with the form of Chiang Jung Chiao? Are there a connection between the palm changes and trigrams like other lineages for example Sun Lutan, Great 8 palms(I am not sure about the last translation because I've taken the name from Russian site)? When I asked Erle, he explained that there is no connection between the palm changes and trigrams but between postures and trigrams. After that I have done a lot af reading and searching but I haven't found any info how does postures are connected with trigrams. The reason that I am so eager to find this connection is that I think this information will be very useful in understanding deeper the form and its quigong meaning for now it's like external kung fu stile. I have some knowledge about the Qi energy the meridians and how it flows 'cause Iíve been doing daoist yoga for some time now. I understand that I have a lot to learn but I think this connection will be very helpful in a way doing things right! And before you tell me that I have to practice more and live the trigrams alone, I only say that I'm trainig for about 3 hours daily and I think it's time to go on a higher level of understanding. The only problem is that no one can help me.
Thank you once again
Nick Bakrachev


   By Mark Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 09:38 pm: Edit Post

Nick. I got valuable concepts from Erles stuff, but if you want to go further in an organized fashon, then get Park Bok Nams books and videos.


   By Michael Andre Babin on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 11:51 am: Edit Post

Komitarin's comments and dilemna in training largely on his own are common enough today, thanks in part to the proliferation of books and videos/dvds on such subjects.

There isn't an easy answer to training properly except to find a competent teacher in whatever you are interested in and to study with that person to the best of your ability until you have squeezed both that person and yourself dry and have to move onto another teacher or discipline.

Sadly, many don't have access to a good teacher and must use electronic books and videos. Equally sadly, the average beginner is wasting his or her time in trying to learn this way!

Books and electronic media are more useful for the experienced but even then are often most fruitfull as a means of generating income for whoever produced them.

In other words, there are no easy answers and there are always individuals who through hard-work or personal apptitude can learn a great deal from such teaching aids. But they are few and far between in my experience.

As to the bagua circular form, I would suggest developing real physical skill at it before focussing on the cerebral aspects like I-Ching correspondences.

Theory is fine, if your interests take you in that way, but I would like to have $10. for everytime I have met a bagua practitioner who could drone on for hours about the mystery of the I-Ching and how it related to bagua as a fighting art -- but who still made basic mistakes of posture and body mechanics when demonstrating his style -- and couldn't deal with even a friendly spontaneous attack.


   By komitann (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 02:37 pm: Edit Post

Thank you all. But all I want is a simple extended understanding and to fill the unfinished Bagua chart from Erle'site where he gives some connections between the postures and the trigrams but it doesn't have the whole form


   By Michael Andre Babin on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 03:15 pm: Edit Post

Ask Erle, he is usually quite willing to answer emails from people with questions.


   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 12:29 am: Edit Post

while you're at it, ask Erle when he plans to pay me back.

Bob#2


   By Jamie (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 10:06 pm: Edit Post

Pa-Kua is concerned with eight changes that are based on eight diagrams such as Chien as heaven, Kun as earth, Chen as thunder, Kan as water, Ken as mountain, Sun as wood, Li as fire, and Tui as lake. Each is an attribution to strength, yielding, inciting movements, dangerous, resting, penetrating, light-giving, and joyful respectively. When Pa-Kua is used to indicate the body, it represents Chien as head, Kun as abdomen, Chen as foot, Kan as ears, Ken as hands, Sun as hip, Li as eyes, and Tui as mouth. For Chuan or palm, it represents Chien as head, Kun as abdomen, Kan as kidney, Li as heart, Sun as the first section of coccyx to the seventh section of chine, Ken as cervical vertebra, Chen as left side of abdomen, Tui as right side of abdomen. This is called Pa-Kua, used in the body. For extremities, it represents abdomen as Wu Chi, navel as Tai-Chi, two kidneys as two I, two arms and two legs as four Shang. Two arms and two legs have two sections, each as Pa-Kua; two hands and two feet have a total of ten fingers and ten toes; two thumbs and two hallux toes have two knuckles each, total of eight knuckles. The other eight fingers and eight toes have three knuckles each totalling fourty-eight knuckles. They have sections or knuckles totalling 64 that becomes 64 kua. It means Wu Chi creates Tai-Chi, Tai-Chi creates two I and two I creates four Shang and four Shang creates Pa-Kua. Eight times eight is 64 Kua and is called changes. The body has internal Pa-Kua and the extremities have external Pa-Kua. To practise the numbers of Pa-Kua with the body is Pa-Kua Chuan. Technically speaking, this rationale of change is it's strength and it's totality.

from the book Pa Kua Chuan for Self-Defense, compiled and edited by Douglas H Y Hsieh (Unitrade Company Ltd. Republic of China, 1983).


   By guest (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 03:22 pm: Edit Post

That clears it up.


   By Michael Andre Babin on Wednesday, March 09, 2005 - 04:10 pm: Edit Post

The real secret of modern pakua is to make a lot of money teaching people who don't want to sweat or fight to walk increasingly tight circles while wearing funny outfits until one day they disappear up their own sphincters!


   By Kenneth Sohl on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 06:41 am: Edit Post

I guess that beats having someone else disappear up their sphincters.


   By Michael Andre Babin on Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 08:51 am: Edit Post

There's a tasteless old joke (and, no, I'm not talking about myself!) that makes reference to a group of sailors forming a circle so that no one gets left out. Perhaps another aspect of modern bagua training best left unexplored except possibly in San Francisco


   By Maoshan (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, March 21, 2005 - 09:29 pm: Edit Post

Peace

Michael,
I'm in full agreement. Most don't want to work for it, and Ba-Gua is something you have to want or it's a waste of time.


   By Richard Shepard on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 12:48 pm: Edit Post

I have two questions related to Chain Jung-Chiao's Baguazhang.

1) Erle's lineage would indicated that Chian Jung Chiao was a student of Chang Chao Tung, and Chang Chao Tung was a student of Dong Hai Chuan. But the Smith/Pittman book says that Chang Chao Tung was a student of Ma Wei Chi, who was the direct student of Dong Hai Chuan. But it also says that some think Ma Wei Chi was really a student of Cheng and did not spend much if any time training directly with Dong.
Any thoughts on this difference?

2) Since the Smith/Pittman book is supposedly presenting the Bagua of Wang Shu Chin, and he was a student of Chang Chao Tung, does that mean that the Bagua in the book is very close to Erle Montaigue's stuff?

I am quite interested in Cheng styles, so I am very intrigued by the idea that Erle's stuff might be similar to Wang's and that they both might really be in the Cheng line.

Thanks,
Richard


   By stan (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 01:32 pm: Edit Post

RS,

Different teachers manifest the art differently and put bluntly, some people despite having a great teachers, show the art terribly.

Some questions are:
a. is it useful?
b. can it be applied?
c. is use matching the mechanics per the teacher?

individual physiology (body size) can and does influence the art?


   By Jamie (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 04:47 am: Edit Post

I'm not familiar with Erle's Baguazhang, but I wouldn't get too excited about what he is teaching.

Erle claims to have learnt his Bagua from Ho Ho Choy who was a disciple of Gao I Sheng, not Chiang Jung Chiao. So what Erle is actually teaching is anybody's guess.


   By Richard Shepard on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 09:52 am: Edit Post

Hi Jamie,

I thought Erle's teacher was Chu King Hung, who was the student of Ho Ho Choy.

I believe it was on Michael Babin's website where I read that Ho Ho Choy was indeed a student of Chian Jung Chiao.

Mr. Babin?

Thanks,
Richard


   By Michael Andre Babin on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 11:58 am: Edit Post

Hi Richard:
Erle learned his basic bagua forms in London in the early 70s from Chu Kin Hung who had studied both Yang-style and Gao-style bagua in Hong Kong before moving to England.

Chu had learned from Ho Ho-choi (also known as He Ke Cai) who was originally from the Chinese mainland but moved to Hong Kong after the war and died in the mid-90s, He was the last of Gao Yi Sheng's direct lineage students.

The forms Erle teaches have evolved over the decades that he has been teaching and are different in detail from those practised by other members of the Gao-style family but that is true of many of the supposedly "orthodox" versions of those forms that I have seen demonstrated live and on video over the years.


   By Richard Shepard on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 02:25 pm: Edit Post

Okay, so based on what Erle has said and what Michael has said it seems pretty clear that Erle learned a version of Gao Bagua.

I read somewhere that Erle trained directly with Ho Ho Choy in Hong Kong, but not for very long. Does anyone know if that is correct? It would make since if he went after studing with Chu Kin Hung because he wanted to learn from his teacher's teacher.

Thanks,
Richard

P.S. I only spend training time on Taiji and Ninjutsu, but I like to learn about Xingyi and Bagua even if I am not currently studying them :-)


   By Buddy (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 04:18 pm: Edit Post

Not any Gao style I'm familiar with.


   By Kelvin (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 11:27 pm: Edit Post

I checked with my teacher, Mr C.S. Tang, who was a direct student of Mr Ho Ke Cai.

According to him, Mr Ho never taught Mr Erle. Mr Ho cannot speak English.

Not sure where Erle learnt his bagua from, but it was most definitely not from Ho Ke Cai in Hong Kong.


   By Tim on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 11:52 am: Edit Post

Hey Kelvin,

Please give my regards to C.S. I hope he is doing well.


   By Michael Andre Babin on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 12:47 pm: Edit Post

Erle doesn't claim to have learned his bagua forms directly from He Ke Cai. However, Erle was in Hong Kong briefly with Chu Kin-hung in the early 80s and was introduced to the old master.

Erle told me years ago that all information at that time had to be filtered through translators as He spoke no English.


   By Kelvin (Unregistered Guest) on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 10:08 pm: Edit Post

Hi Tim,

Sure I will.

Currently, he is quite busy with his bagua and Xing-I classes.

He sends his regards to you as well...:-)

warm regards,


   By LCToliver (Unregistered Guest) on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 07:22 pm: Edit Post

Regarding the Smith/Pittman book, There are a number of thing I saw wrong or questionable. Robert Smith originally wrote the book in 1967. I got the book in 1974 (in the eighth printing). It was the first book I ever got on Baguazhang and my very first source of information on the martial art other than it existed. Since then, I have learned a bit and have been studying and practicing Baguazhang since July 1996. In both Smith's original book and the one he did with Pittman, Smith also states that (besides Li Ts'un-I being Cheng Ting-hua's student, which is only partially true) some sources claim that Yin Fu was actually Cheng Ting-Hua's student not Dong Hai-Chuan's. We know so much more about the history and lineage of baguazhang now, and I would think that Smith would have cleared up some of the questionable information when he did the book with Pittman, but he did not, he wrote the same stuff without changing or updating any of the questionable information. At the time I bought Smith's book in 1974, I thought it was great because I was learning about the exsitance of Baguazhang - my first contact. Now I don't think so much of Smith's books on baguazhang.

My observation and opinion on Robert W. Smith's Baguazhang books.

- Lawrence -


   By Michael Andre Babin on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:00 am: Edit Post

One possible reason that the martial state of modern bagua seems to have come to a rather low level over-all may have something to do with the art attracting students who would rather obsess over the esoteric theory implied to the art or 'who taught who' rather than get sweaty and a little bruised while training with a competent teacher over the long-term ...

Of course, finding a competent teacher isn't easy in many areas or countries and a beginner has to have enough relevant 'smarts' to know what he or she is looking for as well as enough experience to know what to look for in a teacher.

No easy answers to this although it is always easier to "run your mouth/keyboard" on any contentious martial issue.

See, I'm doing it too! ;-}


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