Grit Illuminator,

I'm ready to debate some bio-mechanics.

bring it on.

let's go.

do it up.

I'm waiting.

To the Great Illuminator,
It might help if you were clear on the definitions of the concepts you try and write about. The term 'Internal' (at least as we use it) has been explained several times on this discussion board. Let's go over it one more time for the people who are having trouble getting it.
'Internal' doesn't refer to names of styles, it refers to fundamental principles upon which certain styles are based. If a martial art generally referred to as Internal is practiced and applied without following the correct principles, the art is no longer 'Internal.' If a martial art not generally considered to be Internal is practiced according to these principles, then the art is 'Internal.' It doesn't matter what the name of the art is, it is the method of practice and application that qualifies an art as Internal or not. If the term "Internal" is confusing you, make up another one. Just stick to the fundamental concepts. Besides the big three Chinese styles everyone who reads Inside Kung Fu magazine knows about, there are at least a dozen other martial arts that are generally recognized as Internal in China; they are based upon the same principles as Xing Yi Quan, Tai Ji Quan and Ba Gua Zhang. In Japan, the various 'Aiki' styles of Ju Jitsu, as well as the original Kodokan Judo (upon which BJJ is based) are also based on the same principles as the Chinese Internal styles (the Chinese didn't invent the principles, neither did the Japanese, they have been 'discovered' by countless fighters all over the world). We use the term Internal as a convenience.
Chi. The question of whether it exists or not has no direct effect on the practice of martial arts. It's a subject best left to Chinese medical practitioners.

Dear Chi a Pet

>Double checked. It's the only pure Ba Gua
>discussion board. There are four. Specify then.

I did not think that it is that complicated. The system from Mr Painter is called Jiulong Baguazhang and that is also the name of the discussion group (JiulongBaguazhang). You quoted from the group "BaGuaZhang" which is not connected to Mr Painter.

And your quote was neither from Mr Painter nor from one of his students. So I do not see the point in connecting him with your quote. It is simply incorrect, that's all.

Kind regards
Volker

I stand corrected. I was looking under the correct spelling of Ba Gua Zhang with spaces not Baguazhang. It doesn't say it's Painter's site.

Tim,

Thanks for your explanation.I have nothing but the utmost respect for your style.I have studied Japanese style with Sensei Ninomiya as well as some of the "internal" with the Chinese Sholin Center.I have seen your tapes and Luo,s tapes and have studied with a high ranking member of the Tang Shou organization.Actually I came through your site via the Matt Furey site and his link.That dude is very interesting,his tape on explosive and combat training is very good and I would highly recomend it.

As far as having a bee in my bonnet or having a problem with a Marcus I do not understand that.I know somebody who studied with him and says he is very good.Perhaps I should look into his school?

My point.Same as before,you never see the Chinese " Internal " style practicioners fight in these major competeions.Why?

Sam Guye, If you think I take my posting name serious then you are sadly mistaking.It is a huge joke.Only having a little fun.The people who come out so strongly against the chi practicioners who perhaps visualize a bit to much,strike me as being ultra pragamatic martial artists who do not believe in mystical nonsense.Fair enough.Except in my expierence these same people who are so quick to knock the mystical chi types,never really fight themselves.Why?

Bob #2,

Since you asked can you explain the relationship between RFD and the reeling of silk?

When did I ask for what?

Bob #2,

To debate some bio mechanics Friday Dec 8th.Splitting hairs are we?What is the relationship of Rate of Force Development and the reeling of silk?Now I,m waiting.

On Friday I said, at your prodding, that I am ready to debate some bio mechanics.

If you want a lecture, ask your dad for the car keys. If you want to debate- then bring an article to debate. If YOU need ME to explain to YOU the relationship of Rate of Force Development and the reeling of silk then you're in the wrong debate, fella.

who's waiting now!

Great Light Bulb,

you asked me:
"The people who comeout so strongly against the chi practicioners who perhaps visualize a bit to much,strike me as being ultra pragamatic martial artists who do not believe in mystical nonsense.Fair enough.Except in my expierence these same people who are so quick to knock the mystical chi types,never really fight
themselves.Why?"

Because, in your experience, you have mistaken blowhards as being ultra pragamatic martial artists.

Personally, I'm a big fan of mystical 'nonsense'. Yet I recognize the diference between someone who teaches a 'martial art' and someone who teaches mystical nonsense as a 'martial art'(mimicing a few movements of an actual martial art- yet leaving out all the 'martial' and therefore, the 'art'). And I recognize the laughability of folks who believe they are martial artists by virtue of the fact they are learning mystical nonsense.


If they call themselves 'Chi Practicioners', then no one would feel obligated to 'come out strongly against them'. But they call themselves 'martial artists'- that'll cause some folks who understand the term 'martial artist' to balk. They shouldn't call themselves Tai Ji practicioners if they don't practice the art.

Hey Great Illuminator,

Why should we believe in "mystical nonsense"? If somebody told you that somemartialart is full of mystical nonsense would you want to go and learn it? Well, you might...

Now go back in time when they actually used martial arts. Do you think people back then would bother with mystical nonsense? I don't think so. Back then they more than likely to be ultra pragmatic martial artist (fighters). Why? Because they were really going to get killed or break something if they couldn't fight.

If you were going to figure out how fight why go the mystical nonsense route? That seems like a lot of wasted time. The keywords here are mystical and nonsense. Only an idiot would still try to believe in something that they've already described as being nonsense. It's kind of like watching an adult try to insert the square block in the round hole. Maybe, the square block will mysteriously melt and fit in the round hole because of the chi energy from his hands. :-0 It doesn't make any sense, he's never been able to do it, but he still keeps on trying to prove that it'll work. Duhh...what do you say to these kind of people?

Oh by the way I've seen a couple of internal martial art practitioner in competition. Tim Cartmell and Rickson Gracie. There are more, but you just really don't have a clue as to what internal martial arts are. You're too focused in on putting that square block in the round hole.

Meynard,

Why do I consider " mystical nonsense "or at least look and make sure the round hole is actually round.Because sometimes things are not as they initially appear.What I think is nonsense today make actually make perfect sense at a later date.And sometimes a verbal "CUE" although sounding mystical and flowery make actually have some pragmatic value and merit.So I look and try and understand if the CUE has some form of reality and value that can be of use,instead of automatically throwing it into the mystical trash heap.Cues vs. Reality, a subject worth considering IMO.

> Sam, nice explaination.

Bob #2,

There is a good article at www.adam hsu.com
under articles The Kung Fu Way to Power.

Grit Illuminator,

this is one rivoting debate. You remind me of my ex-wife... and why I don't miss her.

Great Illuminator,

circles(round holes) are circular...squares have four sides...how much clearer can that be? I see no ambiguity in recognizing when something is round or square. Similarly if you know what to look for there shouldn't be any confusion as what is mystical nonsense and what is bonafide martial arts. You just have to know what to look for. What you need is a teacher to show you the correct way of looking at things. I strongly recommend Tim's book Effortless Combat Throws as a starter.

Meynard,

I have no idea about your martial art prowess,from the looks of your post however you do seem to be one who assumes wthout knowing.First of all rarely is it ever simply circles and squares.A circle can appear to be a circle but in reality it MAY be off sweet.I wouldn,t expect you to know what that means or is any more than Bob The Sardonic Lightweight would have a clue about the relationship of Rate of Force Development and the reeling of silk.(oops wrong word,it does not imply enough martial intent).I say that because if you had any true understanding or any depth of knowledge IMO you would realize that I have presented a topic that offers the opportunity for some very good and serious debate.Debate that could be delved in to possibly get a greater understanding of the limits of both verbal cues and conventional science.Your recomendation about effortless combat throws is well taken,however if you tried throwing me,it would be anything but effortless.

Unlike you Meynard who presents his uninformed opinions as facts,the above is purely MY OPINION.

" Meynard walked in with his eyes on the floor,
Said you aint got a hinge you cant close the door,
Moses stood up about 6 ft 10,
said you cant close the door when the walls cave in "

Great Illuminator,

I guess in reality you should be called the Great Dim Wit. What color is the sky in your world?

There is nothing to debate as far as I'm concerned. You live in an entirely different world...it seems like it's part of the
Bizarro Universe! To me debate entails that we both somehow make sense and then prove the validity of our arguments. Since you seem to live in a parallel universe, whatever you've said so far has not made any sense. It's like talking to a retard. Go home and read some more comic books. Reading Effortless Combat Throws might overload your pea sized brain and cause you to go into convulsions. You might start to foam at the mouth and then poof you head explodes like a watermelon.

Don't be a complete moron and get a clue. Go get a geometry book. I bet you'll find drawings of squares and circles there. A square has four sides it's a fact not an opinion. It is that simple. As I said before, If you know what to look for there shouldn't be any confusion. You must have just arrived from Bizarro World because you seem to be really confused. This is Earth, the third planet from the sun, in here things work because of certain immutable laws of physics. Why don't you go and learn these first. Don't live life as a complete and total idiot. You're just embarassing yourself.

One more thing. It sounds like you are challenging me. Open Mat at the Shen Wu Academy is every Saturday at 3:00pm. Show up or shut up. I don't have time for useless debates. Alright, I'm done with you...

Great Illuminator,
I realized I never addressed your original question, why (Chinese style)Internal martial arts practitioners are rarely seen in reality based (NHB) events.
Although there have been no legitimate Internal stylists in the more popular NHB events in the States or Japan, there are quite a number of Internal fighters that do quite well in the San Shou/San Da events in mainland China and the ROC. The rules in the Mainland are a bit stricter than the original rules in the ROC (Mainland San Shou prohibits elbow techniques) and the rounds are shorter in general, but the rules for striking and throwing are otherwise very similar to the American and Japanese NHB events.
The primary difference between Chinese rules and other NHB events is the absence of ground fighting in the San Shou and related events. This, in my opinion, is the primary reason you won't see Chinese style fighters (Internal or External) in NHB events. Without cross training in ground grappling, there is almost no hope of winning in the NHB ring.
That aside, I've seen quite a number of Internal stylists win (stand up) full contact fights in Asia, the bulk of which were Xing Yi Quan fighters(when I won the full contact events I competed in, I was also primarily drilling Xing Yi Quan techniques; but to give credit where it's due, my Tai Ji Quan teacher at the time also provided some valuable training).
Some of the best Chinese fighters I saw were trained in Xing Yi Quan or Shuai Jiao. It all comes back to how one trains, with realistic sparring being vital.

Meynard,

See this the problem.You were not debating.You were preaching.Read your above posts.And I would bet that your far too mechanical in your approach in Martial Arts as well.Not everybody needs a compass or a square to solve a problem or to make a point.So save it.You WERE not debating.Not once did you attempt to expound upon or debate my question.Neither did Bob the Sardonic Lightweight.But I should cut #2 some slack.In his accident he mistook his round balls for his rectangular feet and chewed them off first.That is why he has no gonads.

In time my good man Meynard in time.We have a logistical factor.In the meantime I will depart and quit disturbing the goosestepping on this board.It seems no questions about Chi,no asking why most Internal Chinese martial artist do not fight(with about being preached too or derided)and no debate abouts mechanics either.

OK,let me see now, round holes and squares,round holes and squares...

Tim,

After I posted above I saw your post.Anyway thanks and good luck.