Archive through September 19, 2013

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Cheng Style Ba Gua questions: Archive through September 19, 2013
   By Timber on Monday, September 16, 2013 - 07:56 am: Edit Post

When I originally studied Gao ba gua we leaned a couple of throws and I think more were to come later. Since Cheng was a Shuai jiao enthusiast before learning ba gua did he include many of the throws he learned?

You mentioned that Sun cut away the extra stuff that Cheng added and tried to teach the core of what Dong Taught Cheng originally. What sorts of practices did Sun get rid of that Cheng was fond of?

   By Timber on Monday, September 16, 2013 - 12:57 pm: Edit Post

The only thing I can find online is mention of ba gua specific forms and exercises but nothing about how they're applying techniques. e-baguazhang

   By Tim on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 - 12:55 am: Edit Post

Sun removed a lot of the Shuai Jiao training movements and additions to the forms that his teacher had (reportedly) added to the Baguazhang he learned from the founder.

Since no one knows exactly what Dong Haichuan actually taught, it's impossible to know precisely what other first generation teachers added or subtracted.

The Cheng style has movements and training exercises that were obviously taken from Shuai Jiao, these, for the most part, are absent from Sun Lutang's Baguazhang forms. Both the Cheng and Sun styles include a great number of throws.

   By Craig on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 - 01:00 am: Edit Post

Cheng was an expert in Shuai Jiao before he was taught Bagua. As the story goes, Dong would only teach people that were already competent an another style, and would then mold the Bagua system around their previous experience... So that would indicate that Cheng style is heavy on the throws he already knew. There are a number of Cheng style practitioners on youtube showing variations of throws. A little searching will do the trick.

   By Craig on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 - 01:03 am: Edit Post

I don't think Sun went minimalist to get closer to what Dong taught. I think Sun went minimalist to get to the essence of what Cheng taught him. Just a guess, as Sun never met Dong.

   By Timber on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 - 11:38 pm: Edit Post

I found some Cheng style application videos.

Be honest peeps. Does any of this look like irfan be applied in sparring?

   By Craig on Tuesday, September 17, 2013 - 11:48 pm: Edit Post

None of those are Cheng style vids. They're vids of Li Tai Liang teaching Xin Yi Dao.

Not sure what "irfan" means, but if you're asking if someone could apply this under resistance? I'd venture to say that Lai Tai Liang could, being that he has had ample experience

   By Timber on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 12:15 am: Edit Post

My mistake. I read he studied Cheng ba gua.
I have never heard of a style called xing yi dao which would translate as mind body way??
"Grandmaster Li learned Bagua from Grandmaster Zhang Fengjing. This style of bagua pre-dates Dong Hai Chuan and is simply known as old Bagua or Taoist Bagua. He also learned Bagua from his father, Li Shiquan and his father's teacher, Bu Xuekuan. Grandmaster Li is also a closed door disciple of Wang Rongtang (1913-present), who was a disciple of Yang Mingshan. Yang Mingshan was a disciple of Cheng Tinghua, who learned his Bagua from Dong Haichuan, the art's founder.

   By Timber on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 12:17 am: Edit Post

I'll also add that I don't think those techniques are applicable as shown.

   By Craig on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 04:57 am: Edit Post

Lai Tai Liang learned a variety of arts. If you want more info, there are plenty of his students on line who can provide you with more if you ask around.

People like to proclaim that this or that technique would not work, and then someone makes it work. Fact is, any technique that has some kind of sound logic to it, can work. It just takes someone who's trained realistically to make it work.

Mr. Li happens to be one of the few IMA masters that has fought full contact in China and won. He was also head coach of the Shaolin Temple San Shou team, couch of the Beijing San Shou team and was a hand to hand combat instructor for the Chinese Special Police Force. I willing to accept that he has a good idea of what works, and whether what he's teaching has real usage.

   By Timber on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 09:24 am: Edit Post

I'm not badmouthing the guy. I'm just not a fan of those particular techniques.

What is Xin yi dao?

   By Craig on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 06:17 pm: Edit Post

I'm not a student of his, so I don't take offense, but stating whether you like or dislike something is one thing... Proclaiming that it wouldn't work based on one's subjective experience is another.

A simple google search:

   By Timber on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 09:05 pm: Edit Post

It's a combination of the three arts that he made up. That's all you had to say.

Those techniques still suck. :-)

   By Tim on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 09:16 pm: Edit Post

Re: Cheng Style Baguazhang applications.

Sun Zhijun grew up in Cheng Tinghua's village and studied with his descendants and family. He is the greatest living practitioner of Baguazhang (as well as being a master calligrapher, he painted for me the characters "Shen Wu" that you see on the homepage of my website).

Here is a clip of his students demonstrating some Cheng style techniques, this is as close to original Cheng style Baguazhang as you can get.

Some forms:

   By Craig on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 11:08 pm: Edit Post


I didn't "say" because you obviously didn't even bother to do a simple google search, which is "all you had to" do.

You should tell Li Tai Liang to his face that they "suck". I bet that he could change you mind.

   By Timber on Wednesday, September 18, 2013 - 11:59 pm: Edit Post

Why get so offended? What do you gain from protecting his videos?

Does he teach you the fighting secrets in year 6 or 7?


If you aren't his student stop getting so defensive

   By Timber on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 12:50 am: Edit Post

What led you to the conclusion that he is the greatest living practitioner of ba gua?

   By Timber on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 12:53 am: Edit Post

We live in modern times. If I told Li Tai Liang that his techniques sucked and he "changed my mind" I would have him arrested and then sue him for everything he owns including his pet turtles.

   By Craig on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 01:29 am: Edit Post


I'm not getting "defensive". You stated that you didn't believe the techniques were applicable, and I provided you with some of Mr. Li's background, with the rational that people who know how to fight, and have proven themselves in different contexts, don't typically practice or teach techniques that don't work. You then changed from believing them to not work, to not being a fan of the techniques...

You ask what Xin Yi Dao is, and I provided you with a link. You then reply with: "It's a combination of the three arts that he made up. That's all you had to say." Well, if you read the link I provided you with, you'd know that it was an "evolution" of the Xing Yi inherited by a number of masters (who have fighting experience), not only Li Tai Liang... So it's a "development", which is not exactly the same as something "he made up". So "It's a combination of the three arts that he made up. That's all you had to say", is not "all I had to say", as it's not accurate. And then you go on to say that the technique "sucks". So I told you to go find out for yourself as oppose to making subjective judgements.

Why am I protecting his videos? We happen to be in a time where a large majority of CMA and ICMA have lost the applicability they once had, either from the lack of realistic training, or from people keeping secrets. So when someone like Li Tai Liang comes along, who is among the minority of traditional ICMA masters who's got a substantial amount of experience and achievements in actual fighting, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt as to whether they can use what they're showing, and the usefulness of their material. I believe people that managed to preserve the combative material of these traditional arts deserve respect, regardless of whether he's my teacher or not.

There are 4 stages to learning:
1) You don't know, you don't know
2) You know, you don't know
3) You know, you know
4) Mastery

When judging what you're seeing Mr. Li doing in those clips, how do you know that you are not viewing it from the perspective of stage 1? Do you have the vast experience, that he does, to know whether or not those techniques would work?

Yes we live in modern times, and it seems it's a lot easier to dismiss someone from the safety of one's keyboard, than it is to face someone and tell them how one feels to their face.

So if he showed you the applicability of his technique, you'd have him sued? Do you sue everyone who doesn't let you win in sparring?

   By Timber on Thursday, September 19, 2013 - 07:07 am: Edit Post

The teacher in the video wouldn't spar with me. If he sparred with his students there would be video and people taking about it on the Internet since we are in the modern times. You are speculating in his abilities having never seen them for yourself and neither have I. I'm judging specific techniques that are on video for the world to see.

Craig, internal martial arts have not lost their applicability. They were simply never applicable in modern times the way they are being taught today. How are they beig taught today? The same way as in that video. Teachers use the form exactly and make up techniques like the ones you saw. Where is the video of them pressure testing that stuff to see if it works under pressure.

The guy in the video was a San da fighter I believe. He wasn't training like that when he was younger. He was hitting pads, sparring, working on stamina and overall toughness, working on avoiding getting hit etc. he wasn't training slow technique from Xin yi dao.