Tim, Next step in Sun Ba Gua training..

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Tim, Next step in Sun Ba Gua training..
   By Timber on Monday, September 23, 2013 - 11:06 am: Edit Post

After you've learned all the forms, hand positions, etc, what's the next step to becoming fighting profiecient?

I asked you a similar question about zhao bao tai ji training progression. Your answer was free sparring. I understand what you're saying but then I realized i don't understand.

For Sun Ba gua, am I supposed to isolate the throws in the forms, practice them and then spar? What about striking? Am I just trying to get around my opponents strikes and beat him up at a bad angle for him? I guess my question is what is the link between learning all the forms of the system to actually learning to fight with it?

Thanks in advance

   By Tim on Monday, September 23, 2013 - 11:08 pm: Edit Post

The only way to really get good at anything is to actually do it. When it comes to fight training, the closer you can approximate an actual fight (within the bounds of sensible safety concerns), the better you will be at fighting. It doesn't matter what style you practice.

It has always been so, and it will always be so.

In order to develop real, usable martial skills, you will need to train at a level of full contact sparring against fully resisting opponents that guarantees an eventual 100% chance of injury, as well as regular heavy blows to the ego (harder for many to take than the actual physical injuries). This is too much for perhaps the majority of people who choose to practice "martial arts." After a long enough period of this level of training, it is possible to train at a somewhat lesser level of intensity and maintain one's skills, but a long period of intense and relatively risky training is absolutely necessary.

No matter how hard you practice "basics," no matter how proficient you are at doing forms, or applying techniques on compliant or even semi-compliant partners, no matter how deeply you understand "theories," you will not be able to actually use what you have practiced in a real confrontation unless you are willing to spend a lot of time in full contact sparring against skilled opponents (you'll need to spar with those better than you at least as much as you spar with those of your own level or below your level, especially during your first few years of training).

The earlier non-cooperative sparring drills are introduced into a practitioner's training, the better they will get in the fastest possible timeframe.

Sun Baguazhang includes striking, and how to deal with strikes as well as the throwing techniques. The normal progression of training is basics, form practice, sensitivity and set partner sparring and technique drills, then free-sparring.

   By Timber on Monday, September 23, 2013 - 11:41 pm: Edit Post

Interesting. If you were to open up a ba gua school it would be known as Ba gua MMA.

Do you ever get students that get flustered because they can't see the link between the forms and what is manifesting in sparring sessions?

I get that at my old kung fu school. Whenever the sparring gets kinda crazy the traditionalists will say, "how is that Kung fu". You're just punching the crap out of each other. You're not utilizing anything from your forms besides basic blocks and strikes."

I have a friend that studied a short hand system of Kung fu with a specific way of generating power. There were tons and tons of forms to develop this method of power output in strikes and many two person sensitivity drills. But when the sparring occurrd it was all out. Nobody stopped them and said, "hey, you're not doing that funny wave energy thing in all your strikes." It's almost as if they didn't need the forms to begin with.

   By Timber on Monday, September 23, 2013 - 11:53 pm: Edit Post

This is how my solo training has been going lately. I train twice a day.

In the morning I do stength exercises mostly body weight and stamina training. I'm starting to mix explosive training and isometrics in. After I get out of work at night I do all the soft stuff. Circle walking, tai ji, sun ba gua forms, nei gong. That's just my daily solo routine on days I can't get to class. On those days I just do the soft stuff at night.

   By Timber on Saturday, September 28, 2013 - 07:16 am: Edit Post

Do pro fighters spar full contact often? This would seem counterintuitive since injuries would occur more often resulting in them pulling out of fights. I think Dana Whute made a comment about not sparring so hard during training before a fight.

   By Backarcher on Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 11:23 am: Edit Post

Pro fighters train with variant of degrees of full contact weekly.
1) full contact kickboxing with takedowns (no elbows, light knees)
2) full contact boxing
3) full contact kickboxing(no elbows, light knees)
4) light contact MMA with MMA gloves
5) 100% live clinching
6) 100% live clinching on the cage/wall
7) 100% live wrestling for takedowns
8) Wrestling for takedowns with one fighter only lightly resisting
9) Jits with hits (grappling with MMA gloves light contact)
10) 100% live submission grappling (no gi)
11) 100% live gi BJJ

Compare that with a guy who just does solo forms or tradition technique with a compliant.

Tim, that really was a great answer to Timber's initial question. I still don't think most people get it.

   By Backarcher on Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 11:24 am: Edit Post


12) Positional grappling
13) flow grappling

   By Timber on Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 05:39 pm: Edit Post

I did understand Tim's post but the. Again maybe I didnt. You can do all jose types of resistance training whip I learning any ba gua at all.

If you and to be a better fighter is there any benefit at all to learning the forms and solo exercsises? That's what I was trying to get at. Do the forms benefit you at all beyond teaching you too to have whole body power?

   By Timber on Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 05:48 pm: Edit Post

I tried to edit the post but it always gets messed up when I use my iPhone. So bob#2...shut your face.

You can do all jose types of sparring practices without any ba gua. If two equally skilled mma people fought....and kne of them practiced solo ba gua exercises would it give him the edge? I have never heard a definitive answer on this.

   By Timber on Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 06:01 pm: Edit Post

Before meeting Tim I did tons of ba gua. But I wasn't doing Shuai Jiao at the time so I don't know if it helps with tougher martial arts. I know that I got and get beaten all the time so the ba gua training didnt help much in hind site.

   By Timber on Sunday, September 29, 2013 - 10:33 pm: Edit Post

I've been stuck on a bus for 6 hours so this is all I have to do at the moment.

I was given an explanation about the use of ba gua forms and I've heard this logic applied to forms in general. The forms were meant to be principles of application and not specific applications. The single palm change can be a sweep or a ridiculous strike that I was shown. The opponent goes to punch you, you move out of the way and strike him while ending up in the typical ba gua en guard position. While doing the walking and forms you are to be visualizing the techniques in action and not just doing the forms for forms sake. The ba gua practicioner is therefore always practicing as visualization serves as a good way to train the mind and body.

Techniques are shown to teach students the principles and are not meant to be memorized. Each principle is meant to be applied I whatever situation you may find yourself in. Walking the circle is also a way to keep from being mentally stuck. By moving constantly you are training the mind to go around problems and find solutions.

You guys see why I like Shuai jiao? The forms/drills are applied as you see them as in other wrestling arts. The emphasis on visualization keeps students from doing the real work.

The ba gua forms are fun easy way to maintain alignment of the joints and also a good meditation method.

   By robert on Tuesday, October 01, 2013 - 12:51 pm: Edit Post

I studied internal arts ever since I got into martial arts heavily about 8 years ago. I found that it was difficult for me to grasp the concepts as they pertain to live combat, until I gained proficiency in Judo. After I learned the techniques of judo, and how to apply them, I understood bgz, xing yi, and tai chi much better, and only then did it help me with my martial skill.

You have to actually apply these arts live.

Yes, in the beginning, as i was trying to figure out how to use it, it was a Sideshow clown act. As I experimented. I even walked the circle around an opponent once doing single palm change for no reason. hahaha

   By Timber on Tuesday, October 01, 2013 - 02:51 pm: Edit Post

A ba Gua guy comes to spar with us. He studies purely ba gua forms and techniques. In every sparring session he just circle walks and then panicked when someone finally gets their hands on him. If the rule of that sparring session is first throw wins you can't dance around.

   By Backarcher on Tuesday, October 01, 2013 - 08:57 pm: Edit Post

"... I found that it was difficult for me to grasp the concepts as they pertain to live combat, until I gained proficiency in Judo."

I have a couple friends who are Silat instructors. What you stated is what I suggested for them. They both tried it, but you can't fake Judo skills live sparring. They both quit.

   By Timber on Wednesday, October 02, 2013 - 07:04 am: Edit Post

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Are you saying they thought they knew how to throw without ever doing it and then quit from judo because it was too hard?

   By Timber on Wednesday, October 02, 2013 - 10:04 am: Edit Post

I actually like what Tim's teacher Luo said about ba gua. He said that ba gua is a factory that you out raw materials into and a finished product. The raw material could be hsing I or whatever. I agree with Robert here. The raw material needs to be a combat sport whether it's boxing, Muay Thai, or stand up grappling. And then I guess you're supposed to add ba gua's strategy of avoiding force and add in circular energy into movements. Stand up grappling already employs circular energy though.

   By Backarcher on Wednesday, October 02, 2013 - 09:37 pm: Edit Post

...without ever doing it...with resistance.

   By Timber on Thursday, October 03, 2013 - 06:54 pm: Edit Post

Tim, do you typically teach the tian gan twisting exercises in your ba gua classes as an additional power building set?

   By Tim on Thursday, October 03, 2013 - 07:38 pm: Edit Post

I only teach Baguazhang in private lessons, and most students practice the Sun style, so I haven't taught the Tiangan in years.

   By Timber on Thursday, October 03, 2013 - 10:08 pm: Edit Post

Tian gan comes from where? Gao style?

Do you find those exercises of be benefit to ba gua practice in general?

   By Tim on Friday, October 04, 2013 - 12:31 am: Edit Post

Gao style.

They are useful for power training.

   By Timber on Wednesday, October 16, 2013 - 10:43 am: Edit Post

I'm starting to like Sun ba gua a lot. I do it every day. The forms are a lot less numerous than Gao style forms. It leaves time for other types of training.

For me it's a great moving meditation method. It relaxes me and makes hot women curious.

   By robert on Monday, October 21, 2013 - 10:23 pm: Edit Post

They probably think youre on MDMA timber.

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