I'm also antagonizing you because this issue gets a rise out of you.

I always thought it went:

1) You don't know, you don't know
2) You know, you don't know, and you know you don't
3) You know, you know... But you don't
4) You don't know that you think you know
5) You know what you don't know
6) you know while rowing a boat
7) you know while consuming whey protien
8) immortality

Timber, I think you're the one who gets a rise out of it..

A little. I'm not going to lie.

Timber,

I don't feel antagonized by your comments, lol, but continue to believe that if it makes you feel better.

It's a big assumption to believe that someone doesn't spar with students, just cause it's not on the internet.

Yes, I speculated that he could use that technique based on his experience. You speculated that he couldn't based on a cooperative demonstration.

I thought it was clear that my statement regarding IMA was about the way the majority of people train them today, and nothing inherent in the way they were designed. Again, the assumption that people don't pressure test because it's not on video says more about one's perspective on the training than reality.

The statement that teachers today make up techniques based on forms exact movements is partly true. When it was based on what worked under pressure, it can be legit. Sun Lu Tang did this too. How do you know Mr. Li was the one who made up this technique as oppose to previous generations of Xin Yi instructors? The technique looks identical to what I've seen from some other Dai Xin Yi people.

How do you know how Mr. Li trained as a young man? How do you know he didn't practice techniques slowly? Training techniques slowly is actually a very good way to internalize the correct body mechanics, before added increased resistance. There are obvious differences between "demonstration", "cooperative drilling" and "pressure testing"... They all serve their purposes.

Craig,

Here is a sort of known ba gua teacher fighting. This is what any martial art looks like in a real fight.

Muay Thai vs ba gua

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=x4ls7SAbN24

Timber,

I saw this clip when it was posted, and it still shows little to no Bagua being presented. That's not because I believe Mr. Hill can't apply his Bagua under resistance, but because he was heavily out matched and couldn't apply any of his skill against a more experience opponent. This will happen with anyone who's out matched... So it's impossible to say that "this is what any martial art looks like in a real fight", unless what you meant to say was "this is what any martial art looks like when there is a large mismatch in experience". Are you saying that you believe Bagua, Karate, Muey Thai, BJJ will all look the same under resistance?

Show me a video of someone fighting with ba gua being shown.

Let me guess, if it's not on youtube, it can't possibly be true, right?

Still waiting for your answer to; if you believe Bagua, Karate, Muey Thai, BJJ will all look the same under resistance?

The answer to your question is obvious. No. BJJ can't look like the others because it is all ground work where as the others are all stand up.

George St Pierre considers himself a kyutoshin karate fighter. Lyoto Machida claims a mostly karate background. Anderson Silva is Muay Thai. Their kicks and punches are the same as there are a limited number of ways to throw those things. The main different is how they utilize their skills which may or may not have to do with their specific styles.

Explain in words then what ba gua is supposed to look like in actual fighting since you can't find actual video. Or maybe write a song for all of us to hear since you don't have any visual evidence of fighting ba gua.

Styles are not just techniques (kicks, punches, throws etc...) but involve certain strategies, training methodologies, body mechanics, movement patterns etc... That all affect the outcome of their expression. There are also the added elements of clothing and format. Look at videos of GSP, and then look at kyokushin competition footage, look at TKD footage etc... We can reduce everything down to punch, kick, throw... but that would ignore other elements such as tactics, the way things are set up, combinations, transitional maneuvers, body method etc...

Tell you what, Timber, why don't you go visit someone who is trained to fight with Bagua, and you won't have to depend on anecdotal evidence or assumptions... Then you can report back with your findings. Relying on the internet has the danger of making one's world view very limited.

In other words you don't know. That's all you had to say. I have yet to meet a ba gua only combatant. The people I have met who have only trained ba gua don't fight or spar. They do techniques like the ones in those videos you're so fond of.

If you have key these people eithe exaij their methods or name them so I can look them up.

I know from experience, not "videos", but I'm not going to spend time on lengthly posts explaining just to satisfy you. If you really care to know, go out into the world and search them out yourself.

Let's see, the difference between the people you've met and Mr. Li is that the people you've met don't spar, and Mr. Li is a full contact champion, head coach of full contact fighters for major teams, and combative instructor for the Chinese special police... The difference in unsubtle.

You said; "If you have key these people eithe exaij their methods or name them so I can look them up." Not sure what this means exactly, but if you're asking for Bagua people who've fought to look up, here's a few big and obvious names to start with:

Luo De Xiu
Su Dong Chen
Vince Black
He Jin Bao
Wai Lun Choi

Some, if not all, still do seminars, travel the seminar circuit and hold regular classes. It seems that you're basing your opinion (believing it as fact) of an entire martial art based on the limited exposer you've had to a few teachers that never trained Bagua as a martial art, and some internet footage. There is a much bigger world outside of what you've obviously experienced, and much of it is not on youtube.

I'm not looking for ba Gus people who have fought. Ben Hill fought in that video. I'm looking for ba Gus people that fought in the "ba gua" way which you still haven't described.

I've already provided you with a list of people who can and have used their Bagua training to fight with, which you asked for, so go and experience it for yourself. I'm not doing you homework for you, plus nothing takes the place of actual experience, and I'm sure it'll be an education.

But if Vince Black beats me up how do you know he didnt use his kajukenbo? Weren't you saying that they are "able to utilize their ba gua"? What of Vince knocks me out with a round house kick and no foot work? He literally just kicks me. Was that a ba gua kick?

Well, if he sets up a technique and face palms you into the floor, you can than ask him how that's an expression of his Bagua, you can ask him about body method, strategy, set up, principles etc... And you can ask him about how that technique, which may or may not be similar to another MA, is expressed uniquely in the Bagua paradigm. That's if you can still talk. Point is, rather than endlessly theorizing about what you think it is or is not, go experience it.

LMAO! Yeah, that was no bagua practitioner, that was a poor excuse for an imitation of one...

Ben Hill has been doing Yin Style Ba Gua for years. In the past he touted himself a fighter but stopped after that match with Nakmeezy.

He has lots of ba gua videos on youtube.

The question is not whether or not he is a ba gua practicioner because he is. The question is whether or not the way he was training traditional ba gua in his videos was effective to learn real fighting skills. He has videos up for forms and conditioning.

Here is Ben Hill training "power".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh0FFjHoltg&list=PLDE5A2B79BF34B771

There are many threads critiquing Ben Hill already, I don't see the use of yet another one. I will say though that regardless of style, people with much less fight experience will find it hard to use any of their techniques on a vastly superior opponent, and will end up looking unskilled.