you need to ask your teacher to explain the term "Li" if you're going to use it.

(if you think Li means "strength" you're incorrect. It means "clumsy strength")

which is something IMA works to overcome.

good strength is "jin" bad strength is "li"

for a Chinese speaker, you don't know very much.

Bob#2

I think this description by Bob #2 of clumsy strength is very good. The key word being clumsy. Now if we replace the word strength with motion we can all gain a better understanding of the word li. Subsequently, we now have clumsy motion, but lets go further. We'll replace the word clumsy with unbalanced. Then we have li as unbalanced motion.

I like to watch professional sports. Not to cheer for any particular team, but to observe thier motion. A sprinter has a far better idea of what three joints of a leg are than most internal martial artists. A baseball pitcher can control the velocity and action of a baseball by using a very balanced motion. A soccer player can kick far better than most martial artists because they use an object to prove a whole body balanced motion.

You misunderstand, although I have never heard the term "clumsy strength", I always just thought of li as "muscular strength" or "brute strength" or physical strength, but you still need a little bit of li in applying fa jin because it is a focus of yi xin jing qi and li combined to form a certain kind of jin {whatever it may be or required for the situation} and as far as healing tech.'s are concerned "{yi wu tong yuan}" for someone so acomplished in IMA "you don't know very much"

I know I can kick your ass.

Anytime

Crazy people, searching for heaven and hell.What they will find though, is the way of lesser men....



Or higher Humility

Master Owl, how can a bit of "unbalanced motion" aid in fajin, which uses balance as its foundation? Or do you disagree with that translation of li?

Without li, how do you expect to raise a finger , much less preform a complex tech.?

"Building up some invisible globs of a powerful weapon which can be used to control opponents with out touch", ..."yep thats crap".

But it sounds to me that is exactly what your getting at.

When I say li let me make clear "only a little amount of li is used", but some is used never the less.

In order to even have a fa jin, you must use the "mind"{yi=xin}to concentrate the bioelectric energy "qi" to manifest muscular strength "li" to its fullest potential.

Depending on what kind of jin is manifested is dependent on the variables of qi and li, "how strong, how soft" for each respectivly, and how the mind is utilizing the focus and projection of the said qi li variables.

Just testing some of your know how. Like I said before,.. You have answered the questions.

What do you think Mr.Cartmell?

if you look at the character for jing in Chinese it contains the radical for strength (li) and suggests that jing is refined strength - or refined li

The 3 internal harmonies of IMA are

the heart (mind) harmonises/coordinates with intention
The intention harmonises/coordinates with the qi
the qi harmonises/coordinates with li

so I think your all splitting hairs on this one. Tim writes abut it pretty clearly in the XY neigong book

Ed

Hi Master Owl,

I think you missed Bob #2's point about the definition of "li". I for one, do not know if his differentiation between clumsy strength and correctly structured strength is accurate, but still he stated it clearly. In his post he is saying that "li" is clumsy strength and would be the kind of thing you see when women slam car doors shut with their hip. "Jin" is trained, structurally correct strength and you would see that when a boxer executes an uppercut. Both involved physical manifestation of muscular strength, but one is efficienty and optimized through correct form/technique.

Thanks,
Richard

"Xin" heart or mind (consciousness)
"Yi" focused, conscious intent.
"Qi" the sum of the processes that translate a thought (desire to move) into a specific directive to move (intent), into actual movement.
"Li" strength or power.
"Jing" trained (focused) strength or power, cultivated over time with practice.
"Zhuo Li" clumsy (inappropriate) strength or force.

exactly.

I guess Tim proves Master Owl's definition of Li to be the proper one, and bob#2 is admitting his misunderstanding.

Based on Tim's post I guess "Li" is a generic word for strength. Bob #2 must have been assuming "Zhuo Li" instead of simply "Li" so that he could contrast it with "Jing" which is trained/focused strength.

Very interesting stuff. My understand of these terms is now better after this discussion.

No- I was right all along. Tim understood me perfectly (great minds).


I'm glad your understanding is better now.
Bob#2

No-I was right all along.Tim understood me perfectly,Now I have to go blind someone with my radient ego.


my all knowing all seeing ego "Oh" I love me

I just hope none of these idiots finds out that im really a second rate martialartist with a poor understanding of the basics but no. they love me they really love me

{You aint nothin but a hater. and I know Master Owl could beat you in any contest of wits or might any day of the week sucka}

Thanks, but no thanks.


I think some of the most long lasting, and most benificiant friendships, can be started with a good fight or disagreement.


Lets not let our xin control our yi,I would rather the yi govern,and the kan and li of our emotions be balanced.

Mr.Cartmell, I am not asking for a definition sir just an opinion please thank you.


In your understanding and trainings, have you ever experienced the higher leveles of {jue jin},and if you have, do you think that this is a fusion of nei jin and wei jin or an inate ability of {lu hua jin},when the qi enters the lao gong and moves to the spine thereby nurishing the shi er jing and activating the ba mai. And I was wondering if you could share some of your experience


Thank you

Master Owl,

Could you ask your question in English?

lol, that's the first thing that came to my mind when i read his post too