Archive through June 27, 2005

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Uncovered Powers: Archive through June 27, 2005
   By Master Owl on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 10:37 am: Edit Post

Jue jin"sense power"

Nei jin"internal power/strength/force"

Wei jin"external power/strength/force"

Lu hua jin"rollback/neutralizing/power"

Laogung"Energy gate where the middle finger meets the palm in a fist"

Shi er jing"twelve qi chanels"

Ba Mai"eight vessels"


   By Bob #2 on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 12:06 pm: Edit Post

where is the question mark?


   By Add a Message (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 12:14 pm: Edit Post

All of you just need to realize that what you are saying is an opinion and that you may be wrong so just deal with it and get over yourselves!


   By Bob #2 on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 01:22 pm: Edit Post

that's just your opinion!


   By Bob #2 on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 03:49 pm: Edit Post

Using the decoder above- (corrected several attrocious spelling errors and added the necessary question mark) I have re-worded the question Mister Owl posted:


"have you ever experienced the higher levels of {sense power},and if you have, do you think that this is a fusion of {internal-power/strength/force} and {external-power/strength/force}or an innate ability of {rollback/neutralizing/power},when the qi enters the {Energy gate where the middle finger meets the palm in a fist} and moves to the spine thereby nourishing the {twelve qi channels} and activating the {eight vessels}?"

I also ran it through my Chi-Hugger Terminology Deciphering Program and the output was only "Unintelligible. Nonsense- please try again".


Bob#2


   By tootsiepop (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 04:26 pm: Edit Post

HA HA HA HA HA HA! LOL-LMAO!


   By Master Owl on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 05:04 pm: Edit Post

"Jue jin" or "sensing jin" is by no means nonsense.For an explanation of this, you can sense the qi flow of the opponent and know his/her intent.

Sensing jins, {jue jin,ting jin,dong jin,ext.}are manifested by increasing the flow of chi to your skin. This is a high level soft jin, that uses more yi-qi and less qi-li,not to be confused with the more popular {xian jin}or "manifesting jin".

The trainings for these types of jins is, fighting while blindfolded, or by advanced skill and understanding in {skin-marrow internal elixir qigung} or {skin breathing qigung} and also is a skill gained by pushing hands or bridging/sticking hands practices, which in turn are neutralizing/rollback energy practices.

I do admit to the spelling errors though.Thanks Bob#2 for being so diligent in pointing that out,because I am not above admitting when I am wrong,and Bob#2, I am not your enemy, please stop treating me as though I am such, thanks.

Now that that is cleared up... Mr.Cartmell...{?}


   By Jimi_Crack_Korn (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 10:45 pm: Edit Post

LOL!!!!!! Everytime I read this discussion board the posts get more and more ridiculous, but Bob #2's wit gets better and more entertaining.


   By Master Owl on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 12:18 am: Edit Post

Let me reword my question so there is no misunderstanding.Thank you.



You have an abundent amount of qi in your dantians already, and{!with intent!} guide that qi to connect with vessels,{at correct flow time for certain vessel} and use that qi to circulate{!with intent!}to your channels{not getting too specific}, and out of your gates to sensitize the skin for "sensing power".

From your view point, is what your doing a unification of external/internal or 'Hard/soft jin',or is it a more soft neutrilizing jin?

And if you have experienced this before can you please share your experience?

Thank you Mr. Cartmell


   By Fredericklemagne (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 12:47 am: Edit Post

Sense ability comes from experience with whatever it is that you do. The intuitiveness "sensing power" comes from the knowledge of the patterns (movement, feeling, situations, etc) that we acquire in the thousands of hours spent on the mat, on the ring or the training hall.

Basically you can't learn this by talking about it and memorizing definitions. You've got to go out there and do it.

Just shut up and train Mr. Owl.


   By Master Owl on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 01:27 am: Edit Post

Ehh, sorry to burst your bubble sir, but sensing ability, at least in my experience, can only be acheived through the trainings that I posted previously.{with which I have trained for decades}


But I do agree that talking and memorizing definitions,does not get you any where.

You should take your own advise.


   By Shane on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 02:27 am: Edit Post

Pardon my bubble bursting sensibilities... but, I get the impression someone is slowly realizing they've wasted decades.

Master Owl has posed some of the most genuinely intriguing questions I've ever had the misfortune to ponder. I'm going to take some Advil with Vodka and try reading this thread again later in the week.


   By Tim on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 02:37 am: Edit Post

"You have an abundent amount of qi in your dantians already, and{!with intent!} guide that qi to connect with vessels,{at correct flow time for certain vessel} and use that qi to circulate{!with intent!}to your channels{not getting too specific}, and out of your gates to sensitize the skin for "sensing power".

From your view point, is what your doing a unification of external/internal or 'Hard/soft jin',or is it a more soft neutrilizing jin?"

None of the above. I practice martial arts.


   By Master Owl on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 04:22 am: Edit Post

Just as we thought


   By Add a Message (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 05:37 am: Edit Post

I take it then that Tim doesn,t belive in/or train the taoist meditative aspects of the neijia.

The Macrocosmic/Microcosmic orbits 'fire/wind method',or the inner/outer dissolving 'water method'.

You kids are still just learning to crawl

I'v waisted enough of my time playing around with you fools,but Tim you seem like a good fellow so I'll tell you this...you can practice and train for eight hours a day fine{your not the first and you sure as hell won't be the last}But if you want to truly excell in the nei jia ,BELIVE IN THE POWER OF QI AND MIND BEYOND ANYTHING ELSE<strength{li} is just superficial child fighting, for without a strong Qi foundation you are nothing but a pushover{I dont care if you train for twenty hours a day}...
And BOB#2 Get your head out of Tim Cartmell's ass,Sorry for the ego bashing Tim,{although you never claimed this} but I'm afraid you are not the most "skilled Taijiquan expert in the USA. I know many men more skilled then you.{And if you like I could have them pay your school a visit for a "friendly match"... if you like...{Not to be taken as a challenge or threat,who knows you might even learn somthing if your nice}...unless of course you are above the learning process,in which some of your previous posts lead me to belive seeya


   By Dude (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 08:47 am: Edit Post

You had me at "Macrocosmic"...


   By Michael Andre Babin on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 08:50 am: Edit Post

Dear "Add a Message";
You shouldn't judge Tim (or any teacher) by a few postings or the well-meaning rants of some of his students . Like you, I believe that there are many reasons to do the internal martial arts and that the traditional terminology and cultural 'wrappings" are intriguing subjects, worthy of consideration on many levels.

However, it is equally true in my experience, that those, like you, who flap their gums the most in a public forum about meditation and Chinese terminology are usually those with the least real fighting skill -- in a Chinese martial arts context or ANY martial context.

By the way, your final comments still come across as a rather childish "my teachers are better than you" even if you coach it in friendly terms.


   By Edward Hines on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 09:21 am: Edit Post

dear mr Messsage/Owl,

I'm curious about the two (?) of you.

Here are some questions. Do you speak Chinese or any other language apart from English?

So having trained in sensing energy for decades - have you also trained in other methods, including Tims? If not how can you make a meaningful comparison of what results you get from each method?

Tim is a public figure, easily reachable. The two of you use pseudonyms. Have either of you actually met Tim before saying that he is a kid learning to crawl?

Here's an analogy. I am English, if I go to say Spain and order my breakfast in English they probably will not understand me very easily. It doesn't mean that they are stupid, or pre verbal. It doesn't mean that they don't know how to make fried eggs either. It just means they speak a different language.

On this site and in general Tim has gone through some effort to keep the conversation in English. I suspect the reason he does this is because it provides a common language in which we can discuss experiences. Also because he has found that when using foreign words for familiar experiences people have a habit of making the familiar experience more mysterious.

You've just come to this site, spouting another language and complaining when the people here answer in their native tongue.

Why don't you visit Tim yourself. He's a kid learning to crawl right, while you've spent decades developing abundant qi in your dan tien. So there's nothing he can do to you?

Equally I'll be happy to host a visit from you if Paris is closer to you than LA. I consider Tim to be a far better martial artist than me so I really will be no threat to you at all. I must be a kid learning to wave his hands.

Excuse the passion but all I've seen from you is talk, and I've seen more from Tim, and I'm tired of seing hard working people dissed from a distance.


best wishes

Edward Hines


   By mudfoot (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 09:39 am: Edit Post

I thought this thread was about the possiblity of 'uncovered powers' not degrading down to the depths of the age old, fruitless my gi is bigger than your gi argument?

In any case the importance is not grately placed upon the inner alchemy of chi in Gao style (in my limited understanding) - so this debate is misplaced here in any case - power development anybody? The primary concern of Gao is the protection of the self and loved ones via efficient martial movement (in my limited understanding).

Master Owl - many different paths lead to the same destination, if you are confident in your own bearings be happy with this and let others find their own way.

Bob #2 - LOL, dude what do you do for a job?

Unfortuately I find it easy to understand why so many people go looking far and wide searching for "that" piece of knowledge - the "McSolution" fast, quick, cheap, painless and preferably 'shrouded in secrecy', the answer should and can be literally sought much closer to home.

Most of the content of one of the lessons we attend could be practised and honed for years before reaching any real 'ownership' of the technique.

Uncovered powers? How about The power of generating 112 posts and the awesome potential for pissing off your peers?


   By Blue_TaLe_Flea (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 10:07 am: Edit Post

Hoot Hoot, don't Pollute--Masta Owl.
How come I hear cuckoo clocks going off everytime I read one of your posts?