Archive through January 13, 2001

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Relationship of Pre-Birth and Post-Birth forms: Archive through January 13, 2001
   By Sneaked In on Monday, January 08, 2001 - 06:44 am: Edit Post

Within the Gao style what is the relationship between the 8 pre-birth circle forms and the 64 post-birth linear forms?

I presume latter evolves from the former but how?
Elements of form / shape?

...and how, if at all, do they all relate to the 8 trigrams of the bagua?

   By Tim on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 03:29 am: Edit Post

In the Gao style, for each of the 8 pre-birth forms on the circle, there are 8 linear (post-heaven) forms which are based on the movements and energies (flows of momentum)of the corresponding pre-heaven forms. The pre-heaven forms are designed to teach the methods of generating power and the strategies of the art. The post-heaven forms are to teach individual applications (techniques) based on the forces and strategies of the pre-heaven forms.
The circle forms borrow the names of the trigrams for identification. The post-heaven forms are named according to their predominant jing, or type of force.

   By Sneaked In on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 06:08 am: Edit Post

Dear Tim

Thank you for your reply. As an inquisitive beginner I hope I'm not asking irrelevant questions... ;)

I'm intrigued by the relationship between the circle (pre-heaven) forms, the bagua trigrams and the animal references within the Gao system (which seem to bear no relation to the eight animal forms of other styles).

1/How do the forms relate to the trigrams?
Through a little research I presume the following:-
Qian - Snake
Kan - Dragon
Gen - Tiger
etc... following the post-heaven arrangement of the bagua trigrams. Is this correct?? In other systems Snake links with Water/Kan.

2/Where have the animal references evolved from within the Gao system?

Thanks in advance!

   By Big Balled Betty on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 10:25 am: Edit Post

You might be disappointed with the answer. A lot of this stuff was done to 'neatly' fit a trigram. There is really no relevance to the movement and trigram.

"there's only one, Big Balled Betty!"

   By Tim on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 04:15 pm: Edit Post

In the Gao style, the circle forms are not associted with an animal per se, the animal 'flavors' are included in the techniques of the last straight line form. In most styles of Ba Gua Zhang (notably the Sun style), the animals associated with the individual trigrams have nothing to do with the intent or movements of the forms. The animal names are used as a matter of convenience, unlike Xing Yi Quan animal forms where the intent of the animal permeates the form.
As BBB stated above, originally, Ba Gua Zhang had no connection whatsoever with the philosophy in the Book of Changes. The connection came later when the original name of the art was changed from 'Turning Palm" to "Eight Trigram Palm."

   By Sneaked In on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 04:22 am: Edit Post

Thanks for clearing that up, and BBB- I'm not dissapointed with the answer. Negatives are as important as positives.:)

I shall direct my inquisitive nature to more useful matters like - How come I've still got the energy to think about this stuff after a good training session?

Sneaked In

   By Mike Taylor on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 12:16 pm: Edit Post

You've got the energy to think (about such stuff) after a training session 'cause you haven't over-trained -- this is a good thing. If you're ever "too tired to think," then you're too run down to even protect yourself (a result of over-training/over-working -- not a good thing). In the book of Jasher (a book removed from the Bible by the Council of Nicea, circa 325 A.D. -- but still mentioned twice in the books the council approved of), it is written that the Jewish people were enslaved by the Egyptians by getting them to over-work; once that was accomplished, the Jewish people didn't have the strength/energy to get themselves out of their ever-increasing dire situation. I read this while I was recovering from a sickness which I may have gotten in part as a result of being worn out from hard work & hard training (remember that "hard" is relative to one's current state of health).
I believe Sun Lu Tang wrote about this matter (by implication) when he advised not to train on any one thing too much. Even something gentle can become torture if over-applied (i.e.: a simple drop of water on someone's head, when repeated many times can become "Chinese Water Torture," or simply over-using a keyboard &/or mouse can lead to painful "Tunnel Carpel Syndrome" -- or being bitten by an angry mouse). :-)

   By Big Balled Betty on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 12:39 pm: Edit Post

You should be tired. That's the trouble with most martial arts guys, they don't want to practice a lot and work hard.

You bunch of wookies. Instead of standing around and playing with your chi, go do something constructive. Ask Betty, she knows all!!!

"There's only one Betty, Big Balled Betty!"

   By Sneaked In on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 04:41 am: Edit Post

"...not to train on any one thing too much"
"practice a lot and work hard"?

What to do... what to do...

BBB - would you consider Standing Chi Gung 'playing with your chi' or 'something constructive'? My original question was to suppliment my physical exercise with a little mental stimulation.

If anyone else has anything to add on the concept of the post-heaven sets' "predominant jing, or type of force" I would be very interested.

For instance in Kai which part of the form is 'Open'?
As far as I can determine their are at least four seperate changes of waist/direction/dan tien movement:-
*palm strike/split
(forgive me if I use the wrong terminology)

Any thoughts??

   By Mike Taylor on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 12:04 pm: Edit Post

WORK/TRAIN "hard/smart"(?) -- YES; OVERWORK -- NO!
There's a difference (a fine line between the two sometimes, but always a BIG DIFFERENCE in result). I saw the result when a buddy of mine who had had two years of escrima/kali/arnis-type training (with an excellent instructor) return from an Edgar Sulite (sp?) seminar:
Even though Mr. Sulite was an excellent instructor, my buddy misunderstood the difference between training & over-training. Edgar Sulite had said that after practicing a particular move many thousands of times one would become quite proficient; but what was lost on my buddy was that this would take months & even years of training. Instead of spreading those many thousands of reps out over the months & years to come, he did them within days (or a week or two) & developed a wrist problem which only subsided about a year ago -- about three years after the injury occurred.
During those years he couldn't practice the move efficiently & therefore he isn't close to "mastering" it; had he done a few reps each day over those three years, then he'd probably be very efficient at that move today.
While this isn't along your main topic (which is something Tim may answer for you), I feel that this sub-topic is important for those of us who are zealous for martial-art abilities, for the zealous can become over-zealous & hurt their progress (& I speak from personal experience as well).
Take it or leave it -- oops, there it is! :-)

   By Meynard on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 12:20 pm: Edit Post

I think you're just over complicating matters by thinking of details too much. Why not constantly try to refine your technique. Over time, as you get better a lot things would be clearer to you. It's really hard to understand something unless you can put in some kind of perspective and that usually comes through experience.

   By Tim on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 12:57 pm: Edit Post

Sneaked In, the movement you called 'coil' is the 'opening' that the form is named for.

   By Big Balled Betty on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 03:47 pm: Edit Post

I think your friends wrist problem was because he was playing with his own 'stick' too much. Kook!

Most of you guys don't train at all. You're all lazy and take huge breaks between periods of training. How you gonna get good if you're not consistant? Then you look for the easy way out by rubbing your chi balls...If you workout all the time, like Big Balled Betty, you'll be pulling chicks all the time. What a body on that guy. In fact, you'll be drinking big 40 oz Malt liquor instead of your sissy lite beer crap.

So shut up and stare at a candle, you're better off staring at a stripper. That's how I concentrate. Porn stars dig Big Balled Betty.

"There's only one Betty, Big Balled Betty!"

   By DaddyO on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 07:42 pm: Edit Post

Get off the steroids and call a "Porn star" what they are, Hooker's on film.

   By Mike Taylor on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 03:37 am: Edit Post

You're having trouble being consistent with your writing (unless consistently wrong counts as consistency...hmmm). Do you see the contradiction between "Most of you guys don't train at all," & your following sentence, "You're all lazy and take huge breaks between periods of training"?
Do you have anything worthwhile to contribute to these discussion boards -- other than comic relief? And upon what do you base your "thinking" where it concerns my friend's wrist problem -- personal experience (did you, or do you now have the same type of wrist problem)? :-)

   By Sneaked In on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 04:29 am: Edit Post

Thanks Tim
A simple answer to a simple question. As a beginner it's sometimes very difficult to figure out the right question. I'm so glad you didn't give me a lecture on penis size.

How do I refine the move if I don't think of the details? I appreciate that I must practice the move over a long period of time, (and here I would take both BBB's and Mike Taylor's advice and find a middle way), but to merely wave my arms in the air would surely be be unproductive.

As for the rest of you stop comparing your 'sticks' and see if you can enlighten me with comparisons of Tai Chi and Bagua 'Jing' techniques.

Sneaked In

   By Meynard on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 12:00 pm: Edit Post

Sneaked in,

I never said don't think of the details. I said don't think of it too much. Details of differences in wording and interpretations of jing from different styles/teachers and arguing/dissecting them is a waste of time for me. I'd rather look at the essence of it all. But everybody learns differently, right? As much as I like the academic side of studying martial art, I find that I really prefer the physical application of it. So, do train however it suits you.

   By Big Balled Betty on Friday, January 12, 2001 - 04:02 pm: Edit Post

Big Balled Betty isn't on the juice. Doesn't need to be. The Betty was gifted with a naturally huge and beautiful body. Dude, (DaddyO) sounds like you're a little hung up with your sexuality. Listen, if you worked out a little, I could get you to come over to Jon's in H.B. and have a little breakfast with a couple of the hotties. Believe me, if you were getting some spank, you'd be a little more open minded. But hey, I don't think you flogging yourself is a bad thing, there's just more to life than that - like pulling hotties. Now, Mike T. well, he's commended to a life of touching himself. But, Mike T. keep on doing Xing Yi, chicks dig that. There's some hope for you if you keep on Beng chuaning. Maybe you can beng chuan some hottie soon.

On the topic of Xing Yi, in my mind it's the only internal art that's going to get you laid. Look at Yang Chen Fu - big fat uckf that died at 53. Excellent roll model for a system pushed here in the States for health. What the f***? Chicks don't dig fatties. Look at Bagua - Wang Shu Jin, another fatty not getting some. Had to be a priest or something, then bring religion in for him to get laid. Bagua & Taichi guys Sit around a play with their chi. What else was there for those fat guys? At least in Xing Yi you have to sweat. Hotties love when you sweat.

Remember -
"There's only one Betty, Big Balled Betty!"

   By Mike Taylor on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 03:30 am: Edit Post

Thanks for the encouragement -- I could use a hottie. :-)
Also, thanks for more comic relief. To get serious again, I agree that fat instructors don't look like much to the casual observer from a health viewpoint, but some of those fat guys can move their weight well (that is, fight) -- but not when they're dead, of course.
Got more to jabber about but I gotta go (someone else wants on line right now) -- write ya later.

P.S.: I am "commended?"

   By Mike Taylor on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 11:02 am: Edit Post

Whether "commended" or not, I'm back. There was another point I wished to make about Ba-Gua & Tai-Chi: THEY ARE GREAT ARTS OF CLOSE COMBAT -- for those who have practiced/understood the forms & drills (that "pre-&-post-heaven" stuff) enough to pull it all off in a fight.
Willem de Thouars (a.k.a.: Uncle Bill) of Kuntao Silat "fame" has studied the three internal systems (Xing-Yi, Tai-Chi, & Ba-Gua), & apparently it has worked well enough for him; he's integrated the principles into what he had learned at a young age to make him a better (he says craftier) fighter. He also claims that the 3 arts have their individual strengths which work well when combined. Seemingly Sun Lu Tang (a famous Chinese fighter of the 19th & 20th centuries) noticed this as well, since after learning Tai-Chi he integrated parts of Xing-Yi & Ba-Gua into his Tai-Chi system. Tim Cartmell has also studied these 3 internal styles (plus Brazilian Ju-Jitsu, another internal style) & has integrated their principles into what he learned earlier.
Both Tim & Uncle Bill are hard hitters & are fairly well adept at taking a person down (& I've read that the same could be said of Sun Lu Tang when he was alive). I would rather be a friend than a mortal enemy of a fighter with such skill(s). And none of the above examples is/was fat (go figure -- it must all be the Xing-Yi, eh?). :-)