For those of you who haven't seen it yet, check out the clip of Nat and Meynard under "training" on the virtual academy.

pretty smooth.

Nat's a throwin' machine now!

Cool stuff.

Not bad, Nat only gets to train once a week, but he's always up for anything. I think he's the only student I've had who has been knocked out twice in a day and still wanted to box.

Maybe Nat just didn't remember that he got knocked out. I had a friend who got knocked out 6 times in one day. He kept training w/different people who were oblivious to his condition.

My friend spent six months in rehab learning how to talk, walk, eat, and do other basic things. He doesn't train anymore.

are you kiddin'? Tim wont let anyone forget they were just knocked out. He laughs and re-enacts it for weeks.

True that.

Hi all - On the subject of knockouts my Teachers have said that in fighting using a Neijia fighting concept you are looking to take the opponents balance/posture/root, so they are at a disadvantage or in a state of suspended animiation for a second they defenceless so you can then apply your technique

For instance say you have applied a successfull sudden Fali for example Yiquan's rotating a big iron ball Fali end result may be opponent is suddenly jerked/spun around... their root is destroyed they are in a state of limbo for a second (in Taiji it maybe An or Lu or Cai techniques, what is it in Bagua Tim ? I don't know much about bagua)... in this state of limbo you then wack em one with a good punch (we have other options)... my point is are people more suseptable to being knocked out when they have had their root suddenly taken as in the above techniques or harder to knock out when they are rooted

I am not including the concept of adding forces i.e. in Hsingi drilling fist technique where left forearm slams down opponents striking arm thus jerking them forward and right fist strikes forward... so person is moving forward at 30 mph fist is travelling toward them at 30 mph impact at 60 mph

My point is that when the mind is affected in that sudden state of limbo/suspended animiation, (like when trying to regain your balance after slipping on the path on an icy/snowy/sludge day), is that you are unable to brace your self, your off balance and don't tuck your chin in to take the punch, as also your mind is elsewhere...

In the rooted scenairo you've messed up in fighting... a punch is coming you are unable to defend against, but you are still rooted with chin tucked in (a few microseconds thinking but you are still able to brace your mind/self), you are expecting it but you are less likely to be knocked out

If it seems like I'm splitting hairs thats fine but what do others think ?

Kind Regards

Jay

that's a bunch of Chi-Huggin' rhetoric. Good for impressing dim-witted students- pointless for martial ability.

I know a bit about yiquan and apart from the percussive strikes a good deal of attention is put into unbalancing the opponent and it is nigh on impossible to deal with unless you have a very high degree of skill. It is weird that you punch a yiquan guy and you end up losing your balance. You touch arms and same thing. It's a bit like hitting a big spring or wrestling with one!!? You apply a force and suddenly you are all over the place. Having said all that though it does take time to get to that level. The guys I've heard of that are at this level train 6 days a week 6 hours per day and have been doing so for 7 years; the best ones have been training like this for more than 20 years. It is a very simple system, but takes a lot of time and effort to do well. Unlike Taiji as commonly taught, you develop internal power first and then work on the application of it. Also you don't need to be practicing long before it helps to improve any pre-existing martial skills you may have.

My two cents.

Well hey I don't know BoB#2
What Jason Haynes wrote
may have some Martial applications

Just reading it put me to sleep

Stopmakingcents,

I've met guys in China that were very good in Yiquan after training 1 - 2 years.
Interesting also that people in the West often talk about "internal power" whereas Chinese continuously refer to zhengli, implying the idea to use the whole body as one unit. Training to develop zhengli and the application of it also is done almost simultaneously.

TheoV

I agree after 1-2 years full time training you get very good. I think though that you can draw a distinction between zheng li (awareness of internal force) and zhengti li the application of same through shili and fali.

Internal power, wholistic power, same difference as far as I'm concerned. What I was getting at in my previous post was that in Taiji, frequently forms are taught without reference to whole body power, whereas in yiquan (as there are no forms) emphasis is put on Zheng li first prior to learning the application. It's academic really.

To Bob 2 your opinions are fine, rude but fine, by the way are you the guy who wrote that medicore to poor chen man ching book on Tai Chi?, the one with the Faggetty postures, and piss poor MA applications, that would'nt work on my 5 year old neice, I sold mine at a Car Boot for 25p

To Taich Bob If reading things puts you to sleep what good are you gonna be at focusing on your martial arts training..

All other decent feedback welcomed

I believe he is not Bob Smith but maybe Bob Shores ?

However that mediocre book was written by neither Bob it was written by Chen Man-Ching.
Oddly enough that famous Master we all know because of his fagot postures and piss poor applications is world renowned and Master of the five excellences HIS writings have never put me to sleep.
You Jason the nobody have: no book to compare too, no reputation, no following and no disciples to criticize and judging by the mundane drivel of fantasyland ideas you write about never ever will. Your writing is so full of self promotion and self centered self seeking gratification you have forgotten to include the reader and missed the entire point of what the rest of the discussion was about. And by the way nobody really cares what the hell YOUR "TEACHERS HAVE SAID" hearsay is sooooo boring.

Unlike Chen Man Ching to whom more than one translation of his books have been made and millions of copies sold over the decades.
You and your teachers are below approach being that you are nobodies that have done nothing for anybody anywhere to scrutinize.
However as it is with all you best effort to berate the dead Master Chen Man-Ching, maybe Mario Napoli the Chen Man-Ching stylist and first non Chen, non Chinese to win in the Chen Village Push Hands Tournament would be a good adversary for you to prove your point with-
so If you ever over here acrosss the pond and in Brooklyn stop by the Brooklyn Push Hands Club and bring your niece you will need somebody to protect you.

just lucky for you you did not speak poorly of my Super Great Grand Master BOB Bill Head because I would have to go over there and start an international incident. That is if I could get past you boring me to DEATH with your infantile notions on the Martial Arts.

Ouch ! bobs a biting me, first starting on me for boring him to sleep, and now he's woken up jumping up & down throwing his rattle out of the pram...

hell whatever, there are many books on Chen Man-Ching taiji i was refering to a poor copy I have which I did not feel did justice to CMC style, I think Master Chen Man-Chings own writings are great, and I most certainly don't disrepect the dead, only the living that publicly disrepect me, so don't blame me for seeing a poor book not even written by the CMC himself, feel free to contact me direct if you wanna but top tyrin to twist my words and start on me with your vindictive troublesome crap stirring

Well then I must have mis-understood. This does happen even with a man of my great intellect and beer drinking capacity.
You wrote "chen man ching book on Tai Chi?"
I know of two Chen Man-Ching books on Tai Chi written -new Tai Chi method for self cultivation
& The 13 Treatsies
Plus The writing he did for Yang Chen-Fu's book
with postures and applications

The new method book contains postures and applications
One Translated by Mark Hennesay and one by Robert Smith .
So you may see (or may not) in my drunken state how "chen man ching book on Tai Chi?" with postures and applications written by "Bob" would be thought to be the most popular selling version. Edited and produced into English by the well know MA author Robert Smith (whose wife does all the writing for him)
However you were speaking of some other book?
One I am not familaiar with?

Tim:

I have sent you an email.did you received it?
Yours,

Jagshah

Dear Taichi Bob

It's no big deal the book was a UK book on beginers Taiji and the form appeared to be CMC. Having re read my original post I see it should have been reworded better and I can see how it may have caused offence to CMC devotees so apologies for that, I most certainly do not and never speak ill of the dead, and was not referring to CMC himself.

Your intiail comment "that's a bunch of Chi-Huggin' rhetoric. Good for impressing dim-witted students- pointless for martial ability" firstly is wrong. If you have never felt a fali from a Yiquan/Hsingi adept I can understand your doubts.
Secondly it was a put down and uncalled for, so don't be suprised when you are treated likewise.

I stick by my MA opinions, and training knowledge as good solid principles. I'm always pleased to meet up to exchange concepts & ideas and explain further the prinicples I've been taught.

As for Push Hands and Brooklyn. I did not know that Push Hands had become a Martial Art in it's own right with a dedicated Brooklyn Push Hands Club, I was always taught that "Soft Hands" was a training drill and only a slice of the Pie. Maybe some now consider pushing hands a benchmark for MA ability.

Kind Regards

Jay

Jay I'm TaiChiBOB Gods gift to Tai Chi not that other Bob#2
You've confused us
I am only a devotee to BOB style Tai Chi and in no way am I affiliated with Mr#2 or Mr. Shores or CMC.
I claim only my adjuctive use of Tai Chi to inhance my altered states of conciousness with psychodelic chi trails blending harmonously with my natural aura of blissful concentration on my Art better my character and strive toward my next level of enlightenment.

Chen Village Push Hands is not the training drill that the lable might indicate. It is more like Shuaijiao (Chinese Wrestling)without grabbing the uniforms, but with chin na, sweeps and some throws off a Lai Tai like platform.
I only consider combat tours in Iraq a benchmark for Martial Ability evrything else is just sport and games.