P.S. vision and extension of intent/focus/qi
are very different things.

Well,I'm back, and have continued to mix Arnis and bagua circle walking.I no longer get"dizzy"
although that is not a perfect description of what I felt. It might be I just got used to the circle or maybee because we started going slower.
We now walk the circle both fast and slow in response to the situation.

Thanks again for the helpful replies.

When walking the circle at first is it normal to feel much less connected/co-ordinated when walking with your weak side in (in my case the left side). If so how does one overcome this and is there a ratio of anticlockwise to clockwise circles you should do.

Thanks in advance.

Edit by SysOp - Moved to this thread

it's normal to fell les co-ordinated with anything new. The way around it is the same way you learned to craw, walk and ride a bike.

Practice and persistence.

I'm not sure about all styles of BaGua- but most circle walking starts in one direction, does a form which ends in the opposite direction- meaning the walker gets an even amount of walking clockwise, counter-clockwise... so the answer is
you should get an equal ratio of both.

I think.

Shane

Shane thanks for your answer. Of course at the end of every circle you end up changing direction but its pretty easy to toe in toe out and go around again. I suppose what Im asking applies to virtually everything we do on two sides kicks throws strikes whatever so maybe it would be better if I asked people do they generally practice more on the weaker side or just keep it about even . I only started to feel this problem lately as up until then I had the dizziness problems discussed previously on this thread but once that went I noticed the differences between my left and right sides.
So again thanks in advance for any advice opinions anyone might have.

Hey Dizzy,

People have right-left difficulties/weaknesses (& strengths as well). One may be able to execute a particular throw without much effort on the left side, but not so on the right; and yet another throw may be stronger from the right than from the left.

One can spend much time working on these weaknesses, or one can spend that time rehearsing one's strengths. Both ways have merit.

If you always (or almost always) start a move from the same side, then there's a good chance that your initial way of moving will become your strongest (as that's where you'll put most of your focus during the learning process...& later it will become well-reinforced habit).

If you also start a particular move in the same room, facing the same direction time-&-time-again, then you may experience some disorientation when you first try to practice the move elsewhere.

Naturally, as one grows up, one will exhibit/develop a side stronger than the other; so, just realize that it's not likely that one can train both sides to an equal efficiency in all moves.

Dizzy and Brad,
You've gotten some answers to your question that sound like they come from experienced fighters. And it seems like a concrete answer to your left-right dilemma is wanting to pin down a concept that only practice supplemented by expert guidance can help you figure out for yourself.

I am not an experienced fighter, andI study xingyi, and very little bagua... Taoist arts, they take many concepts from Laozi who writes:
"The tao is like a flooding river. How can it be directed to the left or the right? The myriad things rely on it for their life but do not distinguish it. It brings to completion but cannot be said to exist."

Sorry if i sound like yoda, but a real practical answer to your left right question is that if your entire body is directed from dantien power... which, conceptually, is like the tao, then left and right become meaningless except when you recall your victory... saying "I threw him to the left,"... or I threw him to the right"

And of course, philosophize and meditate bbfore the actual fight, not during.

Mike
Thanks for the comments and I take the points you made. In the class I train in all training whether it be Circle walking , stances or strikes is always started on the left side preseumably for the reasons you stated in your post. Applications are done evenly on both sides.
Training is done in a variety of locations both indoor and out in a class situation and at home or wherever I have some spare time at work. As for developing both sides to an equal efficiency I think its easier than you make out . The reason I say this is that when younger I rowed a single scull boat (that is a boat with two oars) on a canal and if you werent going straight accidents were likely to occur so after a while your weak side would strengthen to allow you race at your full potential so at least as far as strength goes
you can have the two sides more or less equal.
Anyways the answer is the same as always I suppose practice I just thought someone might have had a similiar problem and could tell how they got over it.
Thanks again for your comments and suggestions.

Dizzy,

...just realize that it's NOT LIKELY that one can train both sides to an equal efficiency in ALL moves.

You specialized in a particular (rowing) motion. I'll bet your left & right aren't equally strong & coordinated in some other ranges of motion (such as if you were to do push ups 'til you couldn't push up any more -- and you rested in the up position up to this point -- you would probably find yourself being lifted/supported more by one arm than the other; give it a try & you'll feel what I mean).

Next consider how much time & effort went into perfecting your rowing; then consider all the posible variations of movement there are & ask yourself if you would have the time & energy to train both sides to an equal efficiency in all possible moves.

My suggestion to you is to pick out a few of your favorite movements that you would like to be bidexterous with & practice those often keeping your goal in mind. And "keep it simple" is usually good advice too. All other moves you can practice to a lesser extent (until of course you find some more favorites).

Mike
I had another think about what you said and I realized I am probably confusing strength and cordination.Even if I am not going to achieve equality on both sides it should still be my goal.
Apart from that I think your correct just take a few at a time and hone them before moving on.
Thanks again for the debate.

I learned the BaGua form (Chiang Jung Ch'iao School)about 20 years ago, and at that time we were only taught palms 2-8 on the left side. We had to figure out on our own how to replicate the palms on the right side. I found that the more I practiced, the less concern I had about laterality. I believe the form's uniquely designed to allow the player to fight from either side, in all directions, and ranges. It's best to work with a partner and explore the applications throughout the form. I don't get too caught up in any particular applications, because there are so many available, depending on the situation, the relative size, strength, and skill of your opponents, etc. Vince Black points out that the difference between the master and the beginner is what they understand about the form.
Bill

I think that it is essential to practise the forms in a symmetrical manner (as in pakua) as it lessens the chance of over-working/stressing one side of the body.

However, as to martial function, it makes more sense, especially in terms of making the most of your practise sessions, to focus on using your dominate side. Human beings, with few exceptions, cannot learn to be equally ambidextrous. Seems like a waste of time, to me, to try to do so.

Of course, this does not mean that you ignore your left side if you are right-handed and vice-versa; only that you focus on whole-body usage that makes the most of your "strong side".

Any posture/method from pakua will work against a variety of attacks on the open and the closed sides ... if you understand it well enough

M.A.B.

I disagree with your assesment; "Human beings, with few exceptions, cannot learn to be equally ambidextrous." Too many folks have lost a favored limb and taught their weaker limb to fully take the load. For the person with all limbs attached and working- it's just a matter of dedication.

Shane

You should develop both sides of your body equally, especially if you are hoping to be able to use it in combatives.

The understanding I gainned through trainning in Systema and Ba Gua Zhang was that, when one trains both sides of the body equally(conditioning, techniques etc....), ones body has more chance to cope with spontaneious attacks, equally on both sides, during a fight. One of the undertandings taught to me though Systema and Ba Gua Zhang was that, working more on one side of the body could prove to be a disadvantage in a fight. As confusion in ones mind may occur when an attack is recieved on ones weaker side and one has the physical and mental conditioning of having alot more comfort in doing things on the other side. Response time can be greatly decreased, from automaticly wanting to swap to ones better side in fight.

This equality of skill on both sides of the body is suppose to be gainned from the un-conditioning of ones habit(often developed from a young age) of realying on the stronger side of the body.

Just my understanding from my experiences,
Craig

I highly recommend folks regularly use their weak hand for 'normal' activities. It's awkward at first- but if you put your mind to it... (pretend your friggin strong hand was ripped off by the lion you killed).. you'll be surprised at how quickly your 'weak' arm learns to bush your teeth,
shave, comb your hair, use a spoon or fork even chopsticks.

You don't have to make some anouncement or try it in front of an audience... but it'll go a long way toward mentally and physically equalizing your body.

just a recommendation.
Shane

If one loses his strong arm and has nothing to use and train but his weak, certainly it will develop on par, but if one is trying to train both to be equal, unless he is born naturally ambidextrous, he will only be robbing his strong arm of valuable training time IF he is practicing a "strong-side" system. Such systems have strong-side techniques that can be applied in all directions (cuts down on mental confusion), but do possess weak-side techniques that are usually just gross motor functions (simple punch, grab, double-handed moves, etc.)to support the strong side for which is reserved the more intricate or powerful techniques. The advantages to this is that you get twice as good twice as fast, since "proper exercise" was probably not originally the main motivation for martial training. Don't get me wrong, there are systems (kali) that revolve around a left-right sympathetic response training regimen, just that if that is what one wants, then practice such a system (which will have techniques that reflect this), don't try to turn pliers into a screwdriver. A strong-side system was developed that way for a reason. Understand what those reasons are before tampering. BTW, our 2 sides are not the same, and there are numerous examples in nature of this.

I find that one doesn't always have the option, in a fight, to choose techniques according to the stronger or weaker side. I find it far more productive to train both sides of the body equally with techniques based on a certain set of principles, so that during a fight, sparring etc... one doesn't have to rely on doing certain techniques on one side and different ones on the other. I don't find that trainning both sides of the body equally, robs the stronger side of anything positive, but only re-enforces the body to move and react equally and more efficiently, as one unit, IMO.

Only from my experience,
Craig

Who cares if Kenneth Sohl rows his boat in circles.

Craig, I'm sure your experience justifies what you say as this is true of many arts, just that my experience is with a different kind of art (though yours is just as valid). In our search for the common denominators of various arts, we often overlook the differences from which some of these arts may derive their strengths. Form follows function, and some arts are designed from the ground-up to use the entire body in a non-symmetrical fashion (as opposed to "training only one side"). Imagine fighting with a hammer. If an opponent attacks your weak side, you won't transfer the hammer to your weak hand, you will strike with the hammer to your weak side with a different kind of strike than you would use to the opposite side. If need be, you can use the weak-side to parry or trap to set up the opponent for the strong-side strike. If you possess a hammer in each hand, you will still find one is dominant and the other supportive (this is another reason, besides the difficulty of carrying 2 swords, why sword-and-dagger has always been much more common than 2-sword styles in both asian and european cultures). Strong-side dominant techniques for all directions and situations are drilled, no "choosing" is required, it is quite natural. I've never heard of a professional boxer trying to "equalize" their weak side to their strong, as such an approach would be counter-intuitive. In such systems, it would be a complete waste of time to train the weak side to do ALL the same things as the strong, as the need simply doesn't exist (although less intricate, more instinctive weak-side moves can be trained to quite a degree). But not all systems are like this, so I don't claim that this principle is some all-encompassing wisdom required for martial mastery, as it simply wouldn't apply to various styles of jujitsu, filipino stick-fighting, etc. I must stress conditioning exercises to "balance" body development for long-term health reasons, however. Also, I understand practicing daily chores with the weak side can help open previously untapped creative resources in the brain.