PaQua fighers

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : PaQua fighers
   By WildBillCheney (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:45 am: Edit Post

Here goes...once upon a time I used to practice Pa Qua, Hsing I and Tai Chi--- before I would inevitably insult and or alienate one of my pretensiously phony instructors. As fate would have it, my very own strapping 20 yr old son is practicing Brazilian Ju- Jitsu with absolutely no vicarious encouragement from yours truly. He has shown me some stuff that actually seems quite formidable, although he is not able to deal with my hand skills (patting myself on that rear.) Quite honestly, I know if he moves the show to the ground or envelopes me in a lock I am in deep doo-doo,although you can imagine my hestinacy in delivering a full power shot to me own lads nogging. My son has all of the no-holds barrred fighting tapes that he foists upon his old man-- ( in fact he is starting to train for those type of events)-- inevitably, I smirk this stuff wouldn't hold up against a top Pa Qua man. His own inevitable response;why don't these Pa Qua masters prove it in the no -holds barred ring? A good question I suppose, but one I am not really able to answer with any authority, given that I don't really follow the scene....usually I "circle" his querries with that time honored internal martial art precept --- I mystify and and bedazzle with the verbally obtuse and arcane in absence of a real life example.In short, I mutter something to the effect that Pa Qua practitioners are a very pragmatic lot, practicing a life and death type of art: it's practitioners do not appalud the tenor for clearing the throat as it were....or do they?
Quite honestly,and for the vast majority of Pa Qua practitioners I suspect the answer lies somewhere in the aesthetics of a prefered form of beautifully seductive and fitness providing movements than any real practical martial prowess.

   By M. Hatfield (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:45 am: Edit Post

I once asked on this forum, if the respondents were to fight in a MMA match but they restricted themselves to only the methods/techniques of one specific 'traditional' art, then which one would they choose?

Those who replied, refused to answer the question, just talked around it.

   By marc daoust on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 02:49 pm: Edit Post

i think martial arts was a million dollars
business in china even before it was known here
and add a thing called honor to that(or ego if you will).
then everybody is the best(like radio stations) and they will show you how to fly in 30 years of training.30 years later when you're old and wise
sifu tells you "you didn't really think i could show you how to fly?"
when "deadly" fighting arts tell you not to
fight because of morals or that you could kill
someone,what they really means is "don't get your ass kick and make me look bad,i got bills to pay"

p.s.wild bill,get some 16 oz gloves and go at it
with your son see if you can stay on your feet,
or if you hands are that good!!!!

   By Jason Todd on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 07:52 pm: Edit Post

Old school martial artists pre 20th century would grapple with their opponents standing up. They'd stay at safe distance, move to clinch distance when attacked and this is where the rest of the fight would take place due to their sticking skills. This way they could handle/sense short kicks and punches and gain direct links to the opponent's center. But further more, read about guys like Hong Yixiang. He would physically grab your tendons/fasciae during a grapple and could literally tear the skin off your body. How many people you know who can still do cavity press/tendon grabbing when grappling with the opponent? The skill is extinct, except for maybe some guy living in the mountains of China who could care less about our stupid society.

As for modern day skills, if you are so good at arts like Taiji/Bagua, you should be able to engage the opponent at short/clinch range so as to avoid exchanging blows with a stronger opponent, neutralize incoming attacks, and disrupt your opponent's center during the exchanges for a throw or to just touch his forehead while he's trying to regain his balance. When his forehead gets tapped/slapped, he knows he's been hit. If you're on mats or outside on the grass, throw him around. He won't get hurt.

Fighting in the octagon is one thing. In my opinion there just isn't anyone left with any of the traditional skills that Taiji/Bagua can give you. Especially with Taiji, the art has died. The martial side of it has been lost. But someone who's got skill can spar with people and not "hurt" them and when it's over it's very clear who had better fighting skills.

My experience is that people who hesitate to "show what they got" cause they don't want to hurt you don't have that much skill. It's like a marksman saying I don't want to shoot the pumpking off your head because I might miss. Well I guess you're not that good of a marksman then.

   By marc daoust on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 01:50 am: Edit Post

jason you are a halucinating moron,read what you just said and try not to laugh.
do you really think someone could rip the skin off your body?
get off the LSD for a minute ,and get in a real fight .get your ass kicked (like you probably will) and wake up from your dream of fantasy!

p.s. if you know ba gua "masters" that think
they can do that well let me know and i'll be glad
to fight them to see for myself!!!!!!!

   By Jason Todd on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 09:40 am: Edit Post

I don't personally know bagua masters who can do this. As you can see above, I referenced Hong Yixiang with this ability. I learned of this from reading a reputable article interviewing a practitioner who trained with him, Marcus Brinkman.

Here's the link so you can read for yourself.

When I said rip the skin off, I was more point of fact meaning tear the flesh off.

I've been in plenty of real fights. One I got stabbed in the hand. I was worried I was gonna lose the function of my thumb.

Your post makes you sound ignorant of what can happen in a real fight. Even if Marcus Brinkman is full of it.

   By marc daoust on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 02:51 pm: Edit Post

do you really think that you can stay in the clinch and in the opponent's range, and be able to block or parry all the attacks?or even any of them.
sorry i don't mean to be a ass,i always been very open minded,so i tried all kinds of methods,from the simplest to the fanciest,even mysterious chi
and all it did is made me waste good training time
and left me even more sceptical.

p.s if you want i'll tell you why blocking
or deflecting techniques don't work and never's a research made by a neurosurgeon
quite interesting!

   By Michael Andre Babin on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 09:47 am: Edit Post

Simple methods always work best when done in a 'mysterious way' (i.e., as the result of much quality practise) especially in regards to any tactics that might actually work against a skilfull and/or aggressive oppponent.

The best way to get any understanding of this is a good training partner, or two, who understand that cooperative training means neither over-using brute force nor learning stunt fight choreography.

   By Wild BillCheney (Unregistered Guest) on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 11:27 am: Edit Post

Typically , the tenor does indeed clear his throat , and the topic of world class martial art fighters , and Pa Gua adepts in particular, becomes muddled with mysterious methods , i.e , declarative proclamations in regards to fighting from those who have most likely not competed in, and or trained , even one succesful top flight fighter--as verified by a record of competive success. Co-operative training is all fine and dandy for the purposes it serves , among the trees and mists of self- delusion all the more comforting for some I suppose , however, a far cry from training a fighter to enter the MMA ring against a highly trained martial arts athlete intent on separating one's head from one's body. Can we agree that virtually 99.99% of all so called Pa Gua instructors (not a reference to the the Shen wu school as I see that they do compete) have no clue as how to train a practitioner of their own respective style to compete in this enviorment?

   By Michael Andre Babin on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 01:16 pm: Edit Post

I agree with the last statement that "Wild Bill" made; but there are also a variety of reasons to train in a competent bagua style besides winning competitions.

   By Tim on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 08:13 pm: Edit Post

Wild Bill certainly has a way with words.

Add a Message

This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.