Single and double palm change

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Single and double palm change

   By Man from Missouri on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 09:53 pm: Edit Post


Would you please explain how the continuous circular jing of Ba Gua (conserving momentum) is applied during actual combat? The Gao style Hou Tian forms, which are supposed to represent fighting applications, end with a staccato type movement and resemble Xing Yi forms.

Also, you once told me that "everyone fights in a line, really." In what way, specifically, did Ba Gua training benefit people who already had "internal power," such as Sun Lu Tang. Basically, what makes Ba Gua unique or special? Why did you still want to learn it, after San Soo, Xing Yi, and everything else?


   By Tim on Sunday, August 11, 2002 - 11:00 pm: Edit Post

Ba Gua Zhang's emphasis on circular movements and stepping patterns are designed to train the correct sequence of movement and rhythm ("correct" according to the principles of Ba Gua Zhang). The training cultivates the kind of 'jing' or flow of momentum specific to the Art. The fighter is conditioned to move in arcs/circles, primarily in horizontal, vertical and oblique patterns. But in application, the Ba Gua fighter does not necessarily walk and spin in continuous circles.

Think of a bowling ball. You roll it down the alley (it spins vertically), but it hits the pins in a more or less straight line. So some of the applications which appear to be only linear still involve circular or spiral momentum. Conversely, many of the techniques actually involve moving the opponent around you in one of the circular planes of force with you as the center. As far as the Gao style Hou Tian forms are concerned, some of them do contain Xing Yi Quan techniques.

The Experts that studied with Dong Hai Chuan usually became students after being beaten by Dong in challenge matches. In those times, people that taught martial arts really fought, and of course would cross train when they discovered arts that would complement their training. If they found a weakness in their skills, they would naturally want to cross train to fill in the gaps (as it could save them face, if not their lives).
It's analogous to the NHB fighters of today all complementing whichever stand up style they practice with ground fighting.

I can't say for sure, but I imagine the fighters that went to Dong or his students to study Ba Gua Zhang saw the utility in the flexible and evasive footwork and bodywork, and realized it would be a great addition to their skills (especially after the effectivness of the Ba Gua was tested and proven to them).

   By Man from Missouri on Tuesday, August 13, 2002 - 11:20 am: Edit Post


What a great analogy! So, you're saying that even when I move directly into the opponent with an attack, I should still maintain the potential for continuing the circular motion (like the spinning bowiling ball).

For instance, if I attack with the basic "chopping" hand technique and the opponent blocks, I can immediately grab his wrist and "cross" him using the momentum of my initial technique. Is that right?

Would you say this conservation of momentum is achieved primarily through the hands and arms actually tracing circular patterns through space or the twisting (Luo Xuan) component of the movements? Or, a combination of both?



   By Man from Missouri on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 10:27 am: Edit Post

Hey Tim,

I appreciate your excellent response to my original post. I was wondering, though, did you overlook my follow-up question?


   By Tim on Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 01:06 pm: Edit Post

I missed the question.

The body turns and the arms coordinate with the turning. The chopping entry is a good example.

   By camilyon on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 05:02 pm: Edit Post

What are the names of Gao Yi Sheng's and Sun Lu Tang's Single Palm Change? Are they identical?

   By camilyon on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 05:19 pm: Edit Post

What are the names of Gao Yi Sheng's and Sun Lu Tang's Single Palm Change? Are they identical?

   By Bob #2 on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 05:21 pm: Edit Post

I think both are called "single palm change".

   By camilyon on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 07:01 pm: Edit Post

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. I was speaking of the names of the movements within the form of "single palm change." I'm currently learning a form of Jiang Rong Qiao's Form and our movements are:
1. Purple Swallow Fanning Tail / Purple Swallow Throws Fan (Left)
2. Close the Door to Push Out the Moon (Left)
3. Hiding Flower under Leaf
4. Wild Goose Leaving the Flock / Flock of Wild Geese Bursts out / Right

   By Tim on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 07:32 pm: Edit Post

The Gao style doesn't use individual names for each movement, the form is simply "Single Palm Change."

In Sun style Baguazhang, the movements are called:

Green Dragon Pulls in its Tail
Green Dragon Turns its Head
Black Tiger Leaves the Cave
Green Dragon Turns its Body

   By Conal O'Keefe on Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 01:57 am: Edit Post

Tim (et al)

What is the bodywork specific to Bagua that you mention. In what I practice we have specific methods to develop a certain body. Unfortunately I do not have enough time in it to be able to succinctly describe it.

is it the Tien Gan from gao style that you mean? I saw a few of those from a Gao teacher I respect once. Of late I have been seeing a difference between the Body and the Body-In-movement and am curious as to your view.


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