I talked with Jacques Moramarco
he told me the WL video is consistant about what he learned with the Sun family

Ummm...off hand in one of the earlier tapings of it he was missing a follow-step on one of the movements - that was corrected in one of the later tapings - that's one off hand - haven't looked at it in years.

If you can look at his performance - especially the applications tape and honestly say that is a model of Sun Style excellence - who am I to argue. Different witnesses to an accident often recall seeing different things.

I am fully aware he is sanctioned. That doesn't change my observations.

"I talked with Jacques Moramarco
he told me the WL video is consistant about what he learned with the Sun family"

What Jacques told me is that there are a number of specific things Wing Lam does incorrectly, and that he learned the form in just a few days and then made the tape right away (before he forgot, I guess ;-)
What Tim told me about these tapes is that WL doesn't know why he's doing the movements, i.e. what the application is. Notice that he himself felt it necessary to include a video of Sun Peng doing the form, and that's a much better than model than Wing Lam's version.

The tapes are useful, and certainly better than nothing. You can also get Sun Jian Yun's DVDs.

Crazy,,, at least he learned a litle bit with the Sun family, I never saw any WL video yet, So I dont now but if Madame Sun give him certification to teach and he's bad. I think madame sum herself will lost credibility

if he dont know the applicatons, Why he put a fews on the teaching video
as and an entire DVD on Sun applications so he must know some things no?

You should learn to trust your own judgments rather that what "experts" tell you. So many people are so hung up about correct geneology. And yet a very famous grandmaster can have many students, some masters, some indifferent, and some outright bad. Through politics or whatever, certain poeple get elevated to master level, and be basically incompetent.

The performer of a form is displaying the most important aspects of a form. The correct timing and movement which is kinesically correct, powerful, efficient, and consistent with the system he is displaying. Of course, it would help his students greatly if he understood how a particular kinesically correct movement can be applied in various situations as defense, attack, ready position, arm-lock, and throw, but it is not mandatory.

Of course, take this as you will, as it is coming from a 5'7" Chinese master. As far as the qi and internal energy stuff is concerned, none of you need to be concerned with this at your current levels of skill. All good masters have energy, whether they consciously manipulate it or not. Concentrate on not getting caught in anyone's techniques. It is all academic if your opponent can not touch you.

"if Madame Sun give him certification to teach and he's bad. I think madame sum herself will lost credibility"

She was near the end of her life at the time, and is now deceased; and Sun style is little known.
Whether or not it was the right decision, she was probably trying to make some information widely available while she still had the chance.


"if he dont know the applicatons, Why he put a fews on the teaching video
as and an entire DVD on Sun applications so he must know some things no?"

No, that doesn't follow :-|
Lots of people make videos without really knowing the material. I haven't seen that applications video. Jake says it's no good at all; I won't know for sure unless it see myself, but provisionally I'll take Jake's word for it. It's not like there's no such thing as a product that's no good. (Triple negative; it means there ARE bad products out there).


Anyway, I wasn't saying myself that Wing Lam doesn't, or didn't, know the applications; i was just quoting Tim. Who knows, maybe WL learned the applications later, and then made the applications DVD. (yes, and monkeys might fly...)

I agree with Sinn Wai Leung that we have to rely on our own judgment, but that's no reason not to listen to other people's opinions, especially when they have some experience that we don't.

On Master Sinn's other point, that knowing the applications doesn't matter in form performance, if the form performance meets all other criteria-- I don't know about that. The contrary argument is that since the movements are martial movements, any performance of them without understanding their martial purpose is purely superficial.

The point that I was trying to make by quoting what Tim said, was this: I don't think Tim based that statement on conversations or fights he'd had with Wing Lam, or by reading a bio of Wing Lam; I believe what he was saying was that he, as a person who does know the applications, could tell from watching Wing Lam's form that he didn't understand the martial purpose of the movements.
It's kind of like the Turing test: if an expert can't tell by watching whether you know the applications, maybe it doesn't matter (unless you want to apply them, of course). But in this case, Tim COULD tell, and that's the point.

From what I can tell, those people who had disparaging things to say about WL's video have a point, but still there is some value in those tapes; you can use them to learn the sequence.
The demo by Sun Peng is clearly better than Wing Lam's performance, imho.
I also think Sun Jian's DVDs are better than the Wing Lam tapes, and that's what I'd recommend getting, but she's about 80 years old on the DVD's and has a spinal deformity, so that affects what she can do, and she's modified some of the movements accordingly.

What Jacques told me is that there are a number of specific things Wing Lam does incorrectly, and that he learned the form in just a few days and then made the tape right away (before he forgot, I guess ;-)

---
Wing Lam did not learn this form in just a few days. He has studied under Sun Jianyun for some years before making his tapes.

Jerry wrote "But in this case, Tim COULD tell, and that's the point.", blah blah blah

I'm sure Wing Lam can use his Martial Art ability, regardless. I always find it funny when other MA guy say so you do Taiji with a derisory smirk... it don't enter their minds that just maybe you reached a good level in fighting in other styles before you started Taiji and if push come to shove you can move and hit !!

Maybe Tim would do Sun Style guys a favour doing a Sun Style Applications DVD maybe there is a big hole in the market for this and I'm sure it would be good quality and should sell well as it appears from this thread there is a demand for a bench mark Sun Style DVD c/w applications ????

How come 'Master Sin' seems to think that he can somehow judge everybody's level of skill over the Internet? LOL

Fatboy wrote:

"I'm sure Wing Lam can use his Martial Art ability, regardless.

Why so sure? How do you know? Ever see him fight? I'm not saying he can't fight; I have no idea. But just because somebody does forms and even present themselves as a teacher or master doesn't mean they actually know how to fight.

"I always find it funny when other MA guy say so you do Taiji with a derisory smirk...

I didn't say anything derisive about taiji. Some people who do taiji can fight. Some people who can fight also do taiji. It used to be very hard to find anyone who could fight who only did taiji, because most taiji instruction doesn't include any kind of realistic sparring, and most people have studied other arts, but now there are starting to be Chen style teachers from China around who never practiced anything but Chen style, and who clearly can fight.

"it don't enter their minds that just maybe you reached a good level in fighting in other styles before you started Taiji and if push come to shove you can move and hit !!

So you're saying that the only way a taiji person can fight is with some other style? You're not smirking while you say it, are you? Cause it sounds kind of derisory.



"Maybe Tim would do Sun Style guys a favour doing a Sun Style Applications DVD maybe there is a big hole in the market for this and I'm sure it would be good quality and should sell well as it appears from this thread there is a demand for a bench mark Sun Style DVD c/w applications ????

That would be great, and it's been suggested before, but he has other priorities. Maybe sometime that will happen.

"Chen Style Teachers who clearly can fight?"
who are those? I never heard of ANY of them that have ever fought publicly. Please enlighten me.

Jerry Wrote

"Why so sure? How do you know?"
How do you know that I don't know, you are not me !!!!

"So you're saying that the only way a taiji person can fight is with some other style? "

No I'm saying that If I do Taiji and some asshumperfuckwit tries to test me and the Taiji that I practice, don't be suprised when I retaliate with non Taiji related force or training aquired from aduous training and never forgot.... but the fact of the matter is people do get suprised !!!

Besides I'll fight any which way I wanna dude! I'm not constrained to peng, lu, ji, an, maybe you think if you have grasped the birds tail you've got the essence of your art (maybe?), but try grasping a pitbulls tail, or an eagles or a tigers or even the tail of the Great Peng (a mythical bird of giant size and terrific flying power).

After all they say water can defeat fire but too much fire can burn water out of existence baby !!!!

The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grapsed, the words are forgotten. Where can I find a man who has forgotten the words? He is the one I would like to talk to.

"Chen Style Teachers who clearly can fight?"
who are those? I never heard of ANY of them that have ever fought publicly. Please enlighten me.

Enlightening you is beyond my powers.

I did not say that they fought publicly. Maybe they do, in San Da/San Shou competition in China. I have no idea. Actually, I'll ask about that. Other than that, why would somebody trained from childhood in CMA want to become a professional boxer, or do vale tudo or UFC or something like that? They'd basically have learn a whole new system, train it all the time, and in the end there's not much chance of making much money, and you certainly have a lot of pain, whereas you can easily and reliably open a school and make a lot of money.

What it comes down to is that the only reason these guys would want to fight publicly in the West would be to prove something to you and Marc Daoust, and they don't care about that!

It's clear to ME, from being in class with him, that my Chen style teacher can fight. He's called Guo Qichen. Come to think of it, first time I ever studied taiji, with Tung Kai Ying, it was also clear that he could fight, and I doubt he ever did anything, or much of anything, besides taiji (Tung family does Yang style, Wu Hao, and some forms of their own).

"Why so sure? How do you know?"
How do you know that I don't know, you are not me !!!!

I didn't say you don't know. I asked, "How do you know"? You said of course Wing Lam can fight even if he doesn't know Sun style applications.
Might be true, but what's your evidence for that statement?

(Anyway, who cares?)



"Besides I'll fight any which way I wanna dude!


OK, knock yourself out!



"Where can I find a man who has forgotten the words? He is the one I would like to talk to.

There's a lot of them in any VA hospital. Hard to talk to them, though; they've forgotten the words.
I forget a word now and then myself...

Maybe in a few years YOU'LL forget the words, then you can talk to yourself. In a nonverbal way, of course.

Speaking of Sun Style videos, does anyone know of a clip of the 13 form?

Jerry a.k.a. Doogie Howser MD the shittie smart ass rebutted in his own smart shittie ass way....

"Where can I find a man who has forgotten the words? He is the one I would like to talk to.

It's a metaphor fool... if your so smart you should be able to work it out!!! or do you believe it is possible to learn from the dregs of the ancients!!! i.e. books, yea right just like Hong Kong Phooey... Doogie Howser MD the mild mannered smartass.

Here's some more Philosophy...
Nobody likes a Smart ASS

I doubt if any Chen style Masters or Teachers have ever fought anyone worth two squats. But you always hear of these Master's taking challenges that are never documented . Challenges from nobodys. Wang Zhang Zhai beat an obscure "hungarian olympic boxer" OOOOH... wow....
This stuff is never documented and these Masters make a fortune off of hearsay.
Usually their Senior students (who usually have never fought themselves) spread stories about how great a fighter Master so and so is... But if they are so great, why do they never fight? Where is the proof? Usually when asked about fighting, most of them scoff arrogantly and throw up smoke screens about "not fighting is the ultimate way" or some other pseudo philosophical dodo. It's like taking guitar lessons from someone who can show you how to make chords but u have never heard him play a song.
If you have never see him fight, and have no proof, how can it be "Clear to you that he can fight?" ? Take of your sunglasses brother...

sorry the last sentence was...
Take OFF your sunglasses, brother.

"Here's some more Philosophy...
Nobody likes a Smart ASS"

Actually everyone on this list likes a smart ass. But you just don't do it very well. You're kind of a tool. That must be kind of sad for you. I'll be your huckleberry, Mary.

Buddy wrote "I'll be your huckleberry, Mary."

Hey Buddy looks like a half-dumbfuckwit gave you a piece of his mind, and you held on to it!!!

Judging by the old saying, "What you don't know can't hurt you," in the MA world I'd say Buddy is practically invulnerable.