So I visited a local Jeet Kune Do school, because they had a MMA 'fight night' where they work on MMA fighting in a cooperative setting.

Anyway so the instructor turned out to be nothing like I expected. Basically, he gives me this big lecture on street vs. sport. I'm thinking he's full of B.S., so he takes me downstairs into his basement to 'show me a few things'.

Basically, he shows me some non-telegraphing moves. He positions me about arms length from him, and has me try to touch him without him being able to block (his hand at the side of his chest). I try a few times, can't do it (pretty close).

So he tries it on me, doesn't work. Then he does this freaky thing where he doesn't move his shoulder or something. Gets me every time.

Then, he shows me a few centerline striking things, and he's fast. He's on the front of his feet like a boxer, but his strikes seem to have force, and he's faster than a boxer. I try to block, or grab, he moves around my hands. I try to get behind him, and he moves backwards and keeps the distance. (Okay, I'm wearing street shoes and business casual, but I still can't get the moves off in time).

So I'm wondering ... what the hell? I get owned by some JKD guy? He was faster than anybody I've ever met (studied with Bruce Lee's two original students).

Unfortunately his students all seem to be royally bad and have none of his fighting skill, so studying there doesn't seem like it will be an option.

But here's the thing. Does bagua have any short-techniques? I don't know any techniques for fighting lightning-fast center fighting like this. Are there any short-covering fast center-line techniques for bagua? Push-hands exercises like wing-chun or something?

Yes, Ba Gua has ro sho, which is just the same as push hands.

But do you find those are effective against something like Wing Chun or other centerline systems?

Is there a resource for these? It is probably reasonable to assume that each lineage has different exercises. I was told that 'rou shou' was more partner applications and 'tui shou' means push-hands.

There is so much diversity in Ba Gua I couldnt tell you. The Rou shou I practiced was like push hands, but I saw it included some body strikes if the person "got in."

I think Wing Chun is awesome, but my very limited understanding of Ba Gua is that it eclipses most fighting systems because it employs both linear and circular techniques. Supposedly, its the "university" of martial arts fighting where Tai Chi and other arts are like "high school", as I was told by a friend from China.

Which lineage was that Rou shou in? I don't know about any bagua push-hands besides like big wheel.

Cheng bagua at least doesn't seem very effective against fighters that can attack very fast and then move backwards very quickly out of range again.

With all due respect,
You were overwhelmed by "attributes" not style or technique.

One of these days the "martial arts" world will realize the differnce.

That instructor has probably spent years perfecting his attributes, whether he can translate it into a dynamic, mental and emotional sphere is another story. If they have MMA, then most likely his attributes are tested.

His students were probably newbies and with similar training they too will look impressive.

But you could find someone in almost any art traditional or non-traditional with good attributes and simple direct personal delivery system.

Again, the art they've train in really doesn't matter, for in "realtime" our own personal unique delivery system shines through.

Bruce Lee was keen on "attribute" development, he knew when the #@%&* hit the fan in the short period of time a real fight takes, attributes would outshine style or system.

Most most natural way one learns to "shorten up" ones technique is through sparring, again it doesn't matter the system. When your butts on the line often enough, your body takes over and tries to protect itself. Technique becomes more direct and less aesthetic.

I studied JKD for years, in my heart I'm still JKD. I also studied Wing Chun separately. In either you can't look at the system as much as the teacher and his training concept. My Ba Gua teacher reverted back to his Muay thai training when he sparred live with me for the first time. His body made that choice. He did have a very stable base from his Ba Gua.

So, it sounds like a decent place. Look more at the instructor's attitude and training concepts, rather than the students.

No, it's not a decent place because the senior black belts (which actually wore red sashes) that were actually teaching his junior students while he gave tips once in a while, didn't move like this guy.

But this guy was good. That's for sure.

Backarcher,

When Bruce first started teaching he did not really emphasize attribute development, almost all of his early students were accomplished fighters, but hard training and trying to make each technique the best it could be.

Of course the above is semantics because hard training will develop attributes but he was not thinking that way.

Andrew

He didn't begin focusing on attributes until he had the infamous fight. He was ashamed he didn't finish the guy quicker and of his condition. This is just what "I think I know". Who knows the truth.

But again, not until you really begin fighting(someone with skill)do you realize the value of attributes, Bruce Lee or not.

practicing your sport alone is rarely stimulus enough to really improve your 'attributes' significantly or efficiently.

bruce lee was a very opened minded martial artist,
and he was proud to be chinese, RIGHT?
he was all about getting better and adding stuff
to his game.
i really wounder why he didn't learn IMA???
with all the legends,stories and master he could of hear about in china?
bruce was a smart guy,if IMA is great,how come he
didn't use it in his JKD????
yes he did tai chi,but he talked about other MA
a lot more than TC.

His father taught him Taiji, in the lost interview he quite adeptly demontrates peng, lu, ji an and lie while sitting down... he also realised that speed in punching comes from sung .. a type of relaxation but not limpness, where body still has some peng jin.. a type of springyness.

Once you learn how to move in requirements for Taiji it's not easily forgotten, at my local Jeet Kune Do class they practice push hands, I'm no Jeet Kune Do adept but it is Taiji style push hands, not Yong Chun derived style sticky hand, but they also practice Yong Chun style as well.

Lee was probably the first MMA guy? He probably did not push Taiji too much cause maybe the slow movements would not be taken seriously by people looking for Martial Art with emphasis on Martial.
But there will be some Taiji in Jeet Kune Do as well a Yong Chun, Jui Jitsu, Judo, Hung Gar and whatever else he picked up. In Enter the Dragon the jumping kicking routine scene in his room prior to fighting I'm pretty sure is from an Eagle Claw routine?

shut the •••• up!!!
what do you know?

Another estute post Dumbass, or was that Daust.

What the hell are you a louse, what kind of name is Daoust and where do you live, Nebraska?

Are you an illegal alien?

I'm callin the minutemen.

why are you calling the minute man?
give yourself a minute (••••••• yourself)and you'll be that guy!
ps.i'm not illegal!
i'm legally ••••••• you guys over.

Marc,

Bruce studied some basic Taichi from his father and the basic eight forms from Bagua while in Hong Kong. I forgot from whome he studied Bagua with and which style.

He didn't study those arts nearly as much as he studied Wing-chung. But he did studied IMA.

Fatboy,

I didn't read your post ... else I wouldn't have bothered.

"...at my local Jeet Kune Do class they practice push hands..."

That was my first exposure to "push hands" also. My JKD teacher taught us years ago when I first started out. I was skeptical(I was a wrestler). I haphazardly tried to take him down during our sparring of "push hands", but could not.

I was impressed.

He wasn't a 100% traditional MA. He had a background in various forms of wrestling, yet I was still impressed and to this day respect "push hands" training(incorporated the right way).

Push hands is a great training drill, it's a shame that many neijia schools seem to think it's a "martial art" in it's own right. I once was challenged by a Taiji teacher to fight using "push hands" to test each others skill, I said great but only if we can also get gloved up for some boxing as well, and after that can we have a game of pool, and if I loose at that best out of 3, and if I loose at that battleships, or even twister... my point is that it's a skill which can come in pretty handy, but still just a skill
i.e. can a world class Tennis player beat a world class Badminton player?
I once pushed hands with a guy Taiwan style, I made the mistake of stopping when I got him of posture, big mistake, they just carry on at ya !! Theres no definate rules on what you do except punching each other, so you've got moving step, fixed step, running step, chi na, throwing (if you get the chance) grappling/anti-grappling, leg trapping, and so on, great fun!!!

" I once was challenged by a Taiji teacher to fight using "push hands" to test each others skill, I said great but only if we can also get gloved up for some boxing as well"


how utterly disrespectful...