This is prehaps most poetically expressed by Wong Shun Leong, a famous practitioner of Wing Chun when he stated something to the effect that for him before practising Wing Chun a punch was just a punch while he was learning a punch was a complicated thing and after he knew Wing Chun a punch was just a punch again. Brazillian Ju Jitsu Is much better than any of these! I have Graded 3times over and Am classed as a Master Now! I want to challenge anyone!

Hey Rubinho, how well do you think Brazil will do in the World Cup, someone said they are off form and they won't get past the first round!!

For all you Redneck Yanks the World Cup is a famous soccer tournament, which by some miracle you are participating in!!! Bawahahahaah !!!

This is a Discussion board For Martial Arts. I do have a specific for discussions on football which I do not wish to discuss here thankyou! And as For Rednecks I didn't know you Knew my Teaching school Ju Jitsu Rednecks! I must Have a storker in the Likes Of Fatboy!!!!!

I know why you are so fat!!Because your ass is so big you cant actually get out your chair and you have to look at a computer screen allday I actually dont believe you do martial arts! I believe your poor I think I've actually seen you in a video a fat little boy thinking he's a Starwars Sith using a light saber!

Loser!

So big You couldnt challenege me! I also Do Budda Fist, as well as my prolong career in Ju Jitsu Teaching

Hey rich I just noticed you wrote
"you said you dont go forward, and redirect, etc. That is not correct. "

I said "you don't blindly step forward", maybe this caused you to misunderstand and assume I was saying you don't step forward.

Beng Chuan is in repsonse to opponents response, so the counter is with Beng, you can still step forward or back or to either side or diagonal or just stay where you are, there are many techniques, many schools of thought, all apply Beng Chuan in different ways. I know it as a strike to mid section of opponent, in any of the above movement requirements. Some say you can angle the fist up or down on impact or impact to send opponent uproot or bury their centre so they drop, some say you can hit with fist down the immediately up or vice versa, to get a 2 for one shot. Some just hit and crack ribs. Gou Yunshen used to say he could hit with Beng Chuan using the Chi from his shoulders, but if he hit using the Chi from his kidneys the opponet would suffer great internal damage. It is documented that Gou Yunshen did greatly destroy opponents using Beng Chuan, and I don't know how accurate the records are but it is recorded he did a Prison Term for Killing someone in fighting, so we know this Hsingi stuff can be a dangerous!

However other accounts (which could be legend?) also state that Gou used to place one hand on opponent to absorb Beng Chuan so opponent was not injured (badly hurt or killed).

The History passed down from Hsingi masters tell us this is a powerful technique.

Hey Rubin HO the only reason you know the Starwars Sith video is that you were the moronic twats loser friend filming him, and the only reason he did the double light saber sith imitation routine is that he had more coordination than you, and he was a lot slimmer.

Rubinho save your breath dude...you'll need it to blow up your date. I hear she's quite a doll.

Im Not even going to pursue your antics Fatboy Just grow up or put your money where you mouth is and come to Brazillia! Visit my gym anytime Rednecks Ju Jitsu!

I take it good and hard!!!!Bring it

all star wars banter aside,

rubinho, BJJ is a great martial art, as i have studied it for a couple years before studying xing yi. it's very easy to pick up (NOT easy to master, don't flip out) and a person with any BJJ experience will have a lot more grappling/groundfighting skill than the average person/martial artist. however, i think that stand-up game, and, equally important, striking, is still very necessary to have in one's arsenal. which is why i think BJJ is a great addition to a martial art like xing yi, which pretty much lacks substantial groundfighting.

Fatboy,
Alright, you big girls blouse... Just kidding. I have a extreme sense of humor, and I do suffer fron Wing Chun psychosis, and Hsing I and Tai Chi.

My earlier statement against you, where I agreed with Taiwan... about redirecting with Beng.

I was referring to the sinking block, and not the actual strike. You can use the block to redirect an opponent very easily. When the attacker throws a mid punch and you use your lead arm and intercept, just turn your waist a little and lead, the attacker will slip to the side, and leaves all those ribs open, you will hit the ribs quite easily.

Hi Ozzy Dave,

A punch was complicated while he was learning it because of the subleties. Once he had incorporated these into his way of punching or perhaps adapted to the difference it became second nature to punch in that fashion so itjust became a punch once again. If there was no difference between what he originally believed a punch to be and what he discovered in learning it would never have been complicated.

You will note that I said I had never studied Wing Chun but only observed so could not comment on that particular style. My basic statement was that any given style has to be practiced at its most advanced level to be true to what it is meant to be. In other words, if we are unable to attain the same level as those who are the elite in our styles we are not practicing the true style at all. I hope I'm being clear in what I'm trying to say.

I note from one of your earlier posts that you don't practice Hsing I just as I don't practice Wing Chun. I try not to be critical of other styles of martial arts, especially those where I have limited knowledge. What I'm saying about Peng Chuan is from my knowledge of Hsing I and that particular technique. I don't execute this punch like most people. I add things that I have found make the strike more powerful and more damaging. These are the subtleties of which I speak. These might also be used by some practitioners of Wing Chun but I cannot say. Only they would know.

The strikes in Hsing I are delivered differently than from most other styles, even the sister art Pa Kua which I have also practiced. But then I also practice Shao Lin, Chi Na, American Boxing, Judo, and wrestling (Chinese, and International). I was teaching take downs and ground fighting long before BJJ became popular due to UFC. My teacher also asked some of his friends to give me brief intros to the styles they taught so I have an idea of White Crane, Tang Lang, Tai Chi, Long Fist, and several others.

If you have the knowledge and expertise to compare Wing Chun and Hsing I I will leave that to you.

Taiwan 69-73,

Fair enough, points taken.

Since you have some knowledge of White Crane may I ask if you see similarities between Hsing Yi and White Crane as White Crane is one of my primary "styles".

Hi Rich, your last Beng Chuan analysis
"the sinking block", makes sense and I have been shown it, now you describe it better, although the teacher sold it to me no as a block, but finding a "connection", the sinking block is another was of telling it, the energy is Peng in (we all know all internal arts have this, where your arm/whole body is like a motorbike suspension damper unit), that allows the connection where opponent is tricked kinda, cause he don't feel like you have the control but you do, you then expand peng with forward opening or closing, ad some an, and opponent is off posture/not able to defend for nasty punch to ribs etc.

In MA discussion newsgroups 2 guys can be arguing about a technique which they are allready doing the same Lol !!! Describing stuff is a mother !!!

p.s Charlie, I'm warming to what you gotta say, please keep up the input !!

Ozzy,

My intro to White Crane was just that, an intro, so would be more akin to what you might learn in a brief seminar rather than what you would learn if you were a student of that MA. I find that there are some similarities in all striking arts, but that is due to the fact there are some techniques that seem to be used to build a foundation for new students. My teacher started by teaching us how to "walk" (how to move forward or retreat while maintaining a strong stance). The first stance we learned was the "horse stance". We then learned four simple Shao Lin forms and the eight step sets Ba Bu Da, Ba Lin So, and Ba So. Only then did we proceed to Wu Hsing. This is the point where Hsing I diverged from other MA styles. Once we reached this point the similarities seem to disappear.

Since most Chinese MA's have a basic introductory approach I'm sure there are similarities between White Crane and the method Hsu Lao Shi used in this initial phase. After that the answer would be that there are virtually no similarities. At least that is my impression from the brief intro I received.

The IA's (Hsing I, Pa Kua and Tai Chi) do have many things in common. I often hear disparaging remarks in regard to Tai Chi due to the manner in which it is practiced but the technique, when applied, looks very different from what you see in the form. This is also true of Hsing I. The forms in Hsing I avail the practitioner of many techniques, each which has many variations, but the majority of these techniques are actually disguised within the forms. Only a practioner of Hsing I who has been taught what the moves within the form are in actual practice will be aware of these techniques. This is actually this and that is actually that. This allows the practioner of Hsing I to practice his forms while being observed without having to be concerned that the observer will learn anything or be able to "steal" the techniques. Of course Hsing I and Pa Kua are "sister arts". Most often a school master who teaches Hsing I also teaches Pa Kua to the same students. One or the other may be emphasized, but both are taught. Additionally, there is almost always some strong reference to Tai Chi. The form may not be taught but many techniques from Tai Chi will be introduced.

The brief intros to the other Chinese MA's that I received was a special arrangement that Hsu Lao Shi made with his friends just for me. I had just finished learning Sher Er Ong Twei and was practicing it when he walked out onto the mats and asked, "Eh, Buk Yan (a Taiwanese nickname) if you would like to see or learn something from another style you just ask. I fix it for you. I have many friends teach many style." I asked, he made the arrangements. Additionally he had acquaintances from Taiwan's MA world who would occasionally stop by the school to visit. I always stayed long after the formal classes were done to train alone and practice what I had learned. Several of these visitors seemed to take an interest in me and would often come onto the mats to show me new techniques or try to teach a different approach to the delivery of one that I already knew. I spoke little Chinese so learned from seeing and feeling. Many seemed to believe that, "To feel the pain is good. It helps you to learn and understand." I didn't even know their names but they were all very patient and would go over things again and again until they were satisfied that I understood. There was one elderly gentleman who taught me a palm heel strike. I know he was someone of great importance because of the very high degree of respect that Hsu Lao Shi accorded him. He didn't ask Hsu Lao Shi if he could come onto the mats to work with me. He simply did it with no objection from my teacher. In fact, Hsu Lao Shi just watched and smiled. He was a very small man with uncommon power in his strikes. He worked with me for over an hour one evening on just the one strike. He could place the tips of his fingers against your body (in this case against the top of my hand which shielded my body) and without removing them deliver a palm heel that would lift you off your feet and drive you clear across the room and against the wall. The only thing that kept me from landing on my back was that wall. He wasn't satisfied until I too could deliver that strike with something approaching the same result.

I feel very fortunate to have had so many take an interest in my MA education.

You have to understand here that I can only comment on what I know. To go beyond that would be a disservice to the MA's in general. Also understand that I am not belittling you, your comments, or the MA's that you practice. It is not my way.

Charlie

Fatboy,
That's exactly what I was talking about... Although I have met some "masters" that swear it is only a block, and make reference to it as a karate block(lack of better wording). I am not saying these guys werent good, they might have been able to beat me down etc. However, days like that is when I realized that I was getting a deeper understanding of IMA's. I think every martial artist has days like that... all of of sudden your mind completely clears and you say "oh", that is what the teacher meant.

However, those same days, is also when I realized, that I knew nothing, and realized my Taichi, Hsing I, and Wing Chun are relatively empty. And oddly enough, the more I practice the more I realize I dont know.

I always remember the Wing Chun guy Wong Shuem Leung... talking about a punch was just a punch, then he studied how to punch, and made it so complicated, then he realized a punch was just a punch...

I think Martial arts of any kind are simply this... practice, practice, practice, there are no mysteries. If you practice to the systems principles, and pay attention, then you are bound to discover the true art. However, I believe the few truly blessed that reach "icon" level can never be learned through practice.

Its like a guitarist. I have been playing for twenty years, and I am pretty good. And then some young dude with a year of playing comes by and sounds like Steve Vai or something.

Didn't Bruce Lee modify his Wing Chun exactly because he felt that style of punching had no knockout power?

Bruce Lee only studied Ving Tsun (wing chun) for about 2 years before coming to the usa, he had only just begun learning. But he was good with what little he knew, yet he had not arrived to the level where you begin training for whole body power(internal mechanics...the pole form and the dummy form.. he only knew some superficial/"external" or as Taiwan put it... "muscle" stage of the dummy form.)

Oh, I was under the impression (from what I've read) that Bruce Lee studied Wing Chun from the ages of 13 or 14 to 18.

Maybe 5 years of Wing Chun isn't enough to learn to chain puch effectively?

Bruce Lee used the chain punch, and always said he owes all of his success to the Wing Chun style, a great style, his words... watch any of his movies, and you will see chain punching and trapping hands.

Bruce Lee's theory on Wing Chun were simple and actually was a UFC MMA, and that is to absorb what is useful and mix it with your primary style. He was no doubt a Wing Chun man, and so his own weakness within Wing Chun and improved upon it, with Filipino arts etc.

The only thing Bruce Lee ever said negatively about Wing Chun, that is was to stationary,and that is why he added the Western style boxing footwork.

However, in Hong Kong etc. the footwork was just fine, because it was created to accomodate the narrow alleyways etc.

Here in America... there is all kinds of room to jump and dance around.

I forgot to mention that the footwork for boxing and wing chun have alot of similiarities. The wing chun foot work is just flatfooted (like Bagua mud stepping) and of course boxing is bouncy.

I see the strength in both.

i think bagua steppeing can be bouncy, and boxing footwork can be flatfooted. boxers "bouncing" around the ring is mostly a sign of inexperience, and it wastes energy.

and isnt chain punching simply a quickly executed pre loaded (as in every punch loads the next) combo?

and what is the arguement here? it sounds kind of off, like alot of people making speculations from pure observation and 0% experience.