According to the bio I read, Sun Lu Tang learned his Bagua from Cheng Ting Hua. How is Sun Style Bagua different from Cheng style?

Other than Tim, is anyone teaching Sun Style Bagua?

Thanks for any input.

Perry,

Sun style Baguazhang has the same "flavor" of movement as the other Cheng styles. Sun's idea was to emphasize what he belived was the "essence" of the movements, and, of course his body type and previous background also influenced his modifications of the form.

Hi Tim-
I almost hate to ask, but could you define what you mean by "essence of the movements"? I don't mean to be difficult, but I find that to be a bit nebulous.

Thanks.

I want to know what he means by 'flaver'.

Perry,
Dong Haichuan, the founder of Baguazhang only taught recognized experts of other styles. Each of his students modified their original arts around the principles Dong taught.

Cheng Tinghua was a champion wrestler. His version of Baguazhang reflects his background. His unique background and experiences determined his particular style of Baguazhang.

Sun Lutang looked for the core Baguazhang movements in the basics, forms and techniques (as they were represented in Cheng's art), and created his own variation based upon this and his individual background.

Bob #2,
Behold the awesome power of Administration.

Tim,

Behold the awesome power of Awe.

Will you two please go find a room?

I teach "flower Power Bagua" as passed on by "Daisy Duke". We are located in the Bay Area for anyone shaved and ready...

My favourite websites showcased the young master who taught anyone how to do bagua in seven days. Even more interesting was the one in which the young American masters were shown demonstrating what was labelled as bagua weapons training using those ancient Chinese weapons the sai, the bamboo katana and the tonfa.

I particularly liked the fellow in a deep bow-stance who was using a rising x-block to stop the downward swing of a wooden sword. Can't remember the name of that worthy but his nick-name was 'Stumpy".

That bad attempt at humour was mine but, sadly, those websites are real. I should have kept the URLs.

I have a slightly different spin on this subject. I am a practitioner of Luo Dexiu's Gao bagua. I know that you teach only the Sun style bagua in your public classes Tim. I was wondering how you see the 2 arts in contrast as far as applications go. I understand that the sun and gao bagua are very similar in some ways, both being from CTH. I have a grat respect for Sun Lu Tang as an accomplished martial artist, and I am curious about the training methods you've learned from his system. We of course take most of our applications from the hou tian in gao. Since there is only xiantian in Sun's style, how do you drill apps and draw the relationship to the jing in the form? I wonder if it is more difficult to understand the relationship between the forms and apps? Everything in Gao is very clear. It's distinctly mapped out for those who wish to try to understand it. How is that accomplished in Sun's curriculum? Are the apps done in single move drills? How about sparring/push hands etc? I see alot of the gao style in your movements, and since I don't know anything about the appearance of the sun style, I assume they must be similar. I guess I just want to know how you see the differences in training and application between the two. Thanks.
Jesse

Jesse,
I teach techniques and drills from both the Sun and Gao styles in my classes. Since Luo is my main Baguazhang teacher, there is a heavy emphasis on Gao style hand techniques, with throwing techniques from both styles.

Like original Cheng Tinghua Baguazhang, Sun style isn't divided into "xiantian" and "houtian" forms. The circle forms include the strategy of the application, and the movements cultivate the various methods of generating force. Then, applications are learned, and students spar.

MAB -

I believe that is www.pakua.org.

jesse,

Appearance and application are not always the same. Regarding Lutang's baqua, each person physiology determines (as you know) how they apply the rules as they understand it.
Paquazhang magazine (don't recall the year) had a piece on Sun and althought he did not go through 'all the steps" as we know it, as one of the few literate masters, he was able to understand concept and use it to put his mark on his baquazhang.

As you already seem to know, each student was taught based on their previous martial background. Those lacking the basics probably have/had more 'external' training (as in template for balance, conditioning, etc,) so they needed extra work to reach the 'effortless' level of training periodization.

'Effortless' does not mean without effort. It means the body, muscular, etc are primed and ready based on the external threat to executre what one has learnt.

Thanks for sharing Tim. I have alot of curiosity about Sun's bagua since I read the Taiji book you translated. He seems to have had an unusual approach and perspective on the internal arts, given his level of skill and ability. I am interested in hearing anything at all you have to share about Gao and Sun bagua. I'll always be a Gao guy, but I can't help but be inspired by the story of Sun's life. Thanks very much for all the good work you've done to make ima accessible to the public.

Stan: I'm not sure what you're getting at? If you're saying that the application may appear different than the form, I'm already well aware. I study Gao Bagua under Tim's junior brother George Wood I've worked harder than I thought I was capable of during my time training under George. I'm curious what you mean by saying that Sun Lu Tang didn't go through all the steps as we know it? Care to elucidate? Thanks for the responses guys.

Jesse

Does anyone know of any Sun Style DVD's available? I checked with Jarek in Shanghai and he said that Sun Jian Yun didn't produce one, and that Sun Style Bagua wasn't wildly popular.

Tim, you might put that on you list of things to do....right after the Sun Style Taiji training DVD, of course.

Perry

Jesse,

Sun's gounding in xing-i was excellent enough for him to concentrate on zhanzhuang plus his understanding on paquazhang. His intellectual capacity plus actual hard training supplemented each other so his learning curve required less time on learning what we call application.

As an example, anyone who did not have basics had to learn Shaolin intermediate forms plus application, plus complementary avenues to reach a level of skill. As you know, each person was trained based on their past experience/exposure.

Has anyone seen this Sun Style Bagua DVD?

Any thoughts, appreciated.

http://www.plumpub.com/sales/dvd/dvdcoll_sunlutang.htm

Sun Style BaGua
Presented by Joanna Zorya

This is the only Sun Style Bagua DVD I've found on the net.

Thanks.

Judging by the picture on the cover, I'd think twice.

Hi Tim,

I would like to get your input about Joanna Zorya's Sun Bagua DVDs as well.

Thanks,
Richard

I've never heard of her.