Archive through March 09, 2004

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Sun style ba gua: Archive through March 09, 2004
   By Steve on Friday, January 17, 2003 - 10:06 pm: Edit Post

Tim:
Since you practise both Sun style and Gao style ba gua, how are the two different? Does Sun style also have forms similar to Gao style post heaven 64 palms? Or is it only 8 turning palm forms? And why is it that you prefer to teach Sun style to beginners?

Steve


   By Tim on Sunday, January 19, 2003 - 01:31 pm: Edit Post

The Sun style contains the Single and Double Palm Changes as the foundation, and Eight Palm Changes which are variations and combinations of the Single and Double Palms. So there are a total of 10 circle forms in the style. That's it. There are no straight line forms. I teach Sun style to beginners because students can learn and internalize the "flow" of the forms and relevant techniques to a fairly high degree usually with a years worth of training.

The Gao style has a greater technical base, because of the mixture of other styles with the Ba Gua, and it's physically more difficult to practice. Althought the Gao style is structured to take a student from the basics to a high level of skill, my experience has been that the average student will not train long enough to learn the complete style. Most students like the idea of learning "complete" systems. I suggest that my more serious students practice the Sun style a couple of years until they have a good understanding of the Ba Gua, have learned all the basics, forms and techniques and can apply them realistically before moving on to the Gao style.


   By Steve on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 06:48 am: Edit Post

Tim:
Two questions:
1) How are the Gao style post heaven forms as taught to you by Mr. Luo De Xiu differ from those of Liu Feng-Tsai of TianJin and C.S. Tang of Hong Kong?

2) How many kind of two-person exercises are contained within each of the Gao style 64 palms?

Steve


   By Tim on Monday, January 20, 2003 - 04:41 pm: Edit Post

1) The forms Luo teaches are done in extended postures (long forward stances). Most other schools use less extended stances and a follow step.

2) It depends on the branch. Some branches teach two-person matched sets that incorporate all of the Hou Tian forms. Some branches teach technical drills for the Hou Tian applications that are not linked in a form.


   By Steve on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 06:21 am: Edit Post

Tim:
Since you mentioned that Gao style is a more complex system of ba gua, how do you teach it to your students? Also, how long does it usually take for them to learn all the pre and post heaven techniques?

Steve


   By Tim on Tuesday, January 21, 2003 - 02:15 pm: Edit Post

I start with basic standing/alignment practice and conditioning exercises. Then the Basic Hand Maneuvers and related drills, and basic footwork patterns. After the student has built up some power with the basics, they start to walk the circle. I teach the circle forms and straight lines forms concurrently.

How long it takes to learn all the forms and techniques depends on how hard the student trains. On average, to learn all the forms and be proficient at the techniques may take from three to five years.


   By Edward Cha on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 02:24 am: Edit Post

Hi Tim,

Are there no weapons in Sun style Bagua? Sun Lutang wrote that book on Bagua sword, so...


   By Tim on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 06:37 pm: Edit Post

Edward,
I learned the Ba Gua straight sword. As far as I know, that is the only Ba Gua related weapon Sun taught.


   By Edward Cha on Tuesday, January 28, 2003 - 11:39 pm: Edit Post

Tim,

Thank you! That's very interesting. Do you teach Sun's Bagua sword to your students as well? (Since students like the idea of learning 'complete' systems, I guess they would want to learn that, too.)


   By Tim on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 11:20 am: Edit Post

I have taught several students the Ba Gua sword set. Most of my students are more interested in learning things they feel are more useful in the modern world, and aren't interested in learning the more archaic weapons.


   By Edward Cha on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 11:12 pm: Edit Post

Tim,

I guess the students that are more interested in learning things that are useful in the modern world aren't the students that are interested in learning complete systems?

Is the sword used in Sun's Bagua a normal-sized jian? Or is it larger/different?

Are there a lot of weapons in the Gao style?


   By Edward Cha on Wednesday, January 29, 2003 - 11:16 pm: Edit Post

Oh, by the way...

Do you teach Sun's Xingyi and Taiji as well? Maybe Wudang Jian also (did he know Wudang Jian?)? Are there any Sun Taiji weapons besides the jian?


   By Tim on Saturday, February 01, 2003 - 02:06 am: Edit Post

The Sun style uses the regular sized jian.

The Gao style has a number of different weapons.

I also teach Sun style Taiji. The only weapon taught was the jian.


   By Edward Cha (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, February 03, 2003 - 11:06 pm: Edit Post

Thank you, Tim!


   By Craig (Unregistered Guest) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:10 am: Edit Post

Hi Tim,

I have a few questions about the way you trainned in Sun Ba Gua, if you don't mind.

Firstly, when you learned Sun Ba Gua, was non-cooperative sparring apart of the curriculum or did you apply the techniques, body mechanics, strategy etc.. to sparring outside the class.

Secondly, do you think walking the circle is a sufficient substitute for Zhan Zhuang, or is Zhan Zhuang a nessasary component in Ba Gua trainning, for developing realistic fighting ability.

Thanks in advance.


   By Tim on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 02:33 pm: Edit Post

Craig,
When I learned the Sun Baguazhang, we didn't spar during the lessons.

I think some stationary standing is good practice as well as walking the circle. Most styles of Baguazhang include some stationary standing as well as the static upper body postures held while walking the circle.


   By Craig (Unregistered Guest) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 04:24 pm: Edit Post

Thanks Tim


   By sun style question (Unregistered Guest) on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 08:53 pm: Edit Post

Hi Tim,
I read somewhere in the pa kua chang journal that Li Tianji said the sun bagua book by sun lu tang contains the "public" form and sun's close students were taught different. Do you know if this is true?
Also, I bought your translation of sun's taiji book. I congratulate you on an excellent piece of work!
Will you be translating anymore of sun's books eg Bagua book, xingyi book?

Lastly, this is a question for general board----has anyone seen Wing Lam's Sun style bagua and xingyi videos? Do you think they are any good or would recommend them?

Thanks


   By Michael Andre Babin on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 10:59 am: Edit Post

I have Wing Lam's Sun-style bagua animals video as well as the hsing-i video on the combination form; these are more demonstration tapes than anything else to my mind -- useful only to those studying these forms from him or one of his assitant instructors.

There are also no applications of any kind on the tapes I have; if you are hoping for demonstrations of applications to help understand the postures being shown.

It is very difficult to get any benefit from most martial arts videos unless you have a good deal of relevant experience and must learn this way because you have little or no access to competent personal instruction -- even then the results can be "iffy".


   By Tim on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 11:58 am: Edit Post

I only saw one version of Sun's Baguazhang forms taught by Sun Jian Yun and her students. Since she was Sun's daughter, I'd assume he taught her the "real" forms, which she, in turn taught to the public for many years. I don't know if there are any other versions.

Sun Lutang's Xingyiquan book was translated by Albert Liu and published by Dan Miller in 1993.
The ISBN is 1-883175-03-8.