I currently study a version of Jiangrong Qiao's PaKua. Every other day I perform the form with a 20lb. weight vest and two 5lb. medicine balls. On these days I also do weight vest pushups and dips, medicine ball situps. On the other days I practice with relaxation and sometimes speed. My question is what else can I add to make this a complete Pakua training program?

Sparring.

I agree, sparring.

Sparring should take precedence over all other training if you want to train for practical results.

Sparring...against resistance!

First, stop using the weights, your training all the wrong muscles. Better to do it for longer, say circle walking for an hour each day. The point is to train the mind - after all there will always be someone stronger. Regarding sparring - if you mean circle-sparring, which is really just a training method and only superficially resembles sparring - then do that. Otherwise don't, your just giving the brain all the wrong info. The whole point of circle form is not to train fighting techniques, but to train the realtions between movements, that is to train the mind, in the martial arts sense, this is to train the six harmonies.

Kieren,

Training in Chinese martial arts is broken down into two general categories:

The first category is training for the development of particular physical and mental attributes, including basics, forms, stance holding, and various exercises done with and without equipment.

The second category is training to apply the techniques of the particular art against a live, resisting opponent in an actual confrontation. This is what qualifies any of the training as a "martial art."

The first category exists only to further the development of the second.

Paul's question was how to create a complete training program. He apparently has a good idea about the solo training, attribute develpment phase of training. We suggested he focus on the more important, martial arts part of training.

Walking the circle and forms practice has its place in attribute development but without long hours of sparring against non-cooperative opponents you'll have no hope of applying anything you may have learned from the forms in a real confrontation.

Tim and everyone thanks for the response. I will try to work more sparring in. As for weights they have made me stronger and stronger is always better.

Don't try to get stronger because there will always be someone stronger and if you appear frail and weak the stronger people more likely to pity you, like Ghandi. (I hope that helps Kieren's point)

So true Tim,
one must engage in the two person stuff, and perhaps I am guilty of breaking into a Tangent. But if as you say, the solo stuff is somewhat antecedent to, and subservient to the sparring, and is needed to aid the sparring. Then it is important to get it it "kinda right" I do not suggest mastering the solo stuff first, in the martial arts one must burn ones candle from both ends. My point was on the use of weights. What good is completeness if one is training incorrectly. Perhaps another way to look at the situation. In Hsing-yi, as you well know the San-ti and five fists are considered somewhat foundational. But there is no weight training here to develop striking. And if Bagua, Hsing-yi and taiji do form family with common principles, then why would one expect to find weight training in ones circle form?

Kind regards, Kieren

Weight training is not necessary to gain powerful strikes in any art. Though it certainly cannot hurt to lift weights (anything to make you stronger), it is not needed. to get better at combat, you must spar. It is like trying to get better at swimming without ever jumping in the water and, swimming.
Cheers
Jake

Kieren,

I'm not advocating weight training while walking the circle (or even in general, although it is always better to be stronger than weaker). As long as one's solo training is preparing them to fight better, it is correct, and there are many ways to train.

My point is that all solo training should be geared toward improving the specific attributes you'll need when you fight (which is the purpose of martial arts training in the first place). And training to fight requires a lot of practice with a partner, a good portion of which needs to be non-cooperative contact sparring.

Tim,
Ofcourse it is always better to be stronger than weaker, with respect, that's trivial. What is at stake is whether particular kinds of strength training can detriment ones abilty to defend oneself. Thus impacting negatively of your sparring ability. A lot of martial arts training routines were worked out over a very long time, sorting out that which was detrimental from that which was benefical, by a process of observation and experimentation - a kind of natural selection if you want.

Furthermore, it is not always the case that one is fully aware of what attributes are required for improving ones ability. There are the obvious ones, timing, balance and co-ordination. Then there are those that one gains in sparring such as distancing. But then there are the some what more esoteric things such as the different kinds of jing.

It is also unclear what exactly is meant by "non-cooperetaive" sparring. In the methods I train, my taining partner genuinly tries to rip my head off, but this is done for my benefit, for precisely the reasons you mention. In essence we attempt to destroy each other, so that we might benefit the other.

It might be said that some extra psychological benefit is gained through competition, and this is what is meant by non-coopertaive sparring. The issue then is whether this extra psychological fetaure is benefical in "actual combat" where life is at stake. It is not clear that it is. On the street, victory is often delivered through raw violence, not necessarily through strength. There are no rules on the street. intuitively, a psycopath with no technique is more likely to win, than a UFC tough guy. (in some cases the two probably intersect). This is precisely what our solo forms, qigongs and training methods must assist us in, that is, to access the parts of the brain that take us from being a civilised human being to a raving madman. Ask your self this, what are the chances of Mike Tyson stepping into the ring with ravenous pit ball. (actaully - probably pretty good mike's not that bright). But perhaps the point is taken, the pit bull only waighs around 35 kilos, does not have hands or feet, nor does it have a higher brain to invoke clever strategems. I doubt any akido guy would kneel calmy before the beast and merely redirect its force... Ofcourse your initial point returns here, all things being equal, a stronger pit ball will win the day against a weaker one.

Having said all that, I don't think I disagree with anything you say, its just that I more enjoy the dabate. Thanks for your time in adressing my somewhat inane distinctions. Any replies are indeed appreciated. And you experience is indeed heeded.

K.

And yer point is ??

Kieren,

You got it.

ps: In life or death fight, I'd bet on a UFC tough guy over a psycopath any day.

" with respect, that's trivial."

I like the cut of your jibb, Kieren.
It takes tenacity to look reality in the eye and deny it.

Bob#2

im sorry but i would kick a psychopaths as@... and pit bulls arent that strong, just stay away from the teeth.

There are lots of creative things you can do to train basic skills, then you can try all your techniques on your friends so they can give you cool nicknames like jackie chan.

Tim,

I respectfully disagree....

My vote's on the psychopath ..


Kelvin

Tim,

I respectfully disagree....

My vote's on the psychopath ..


Kelvin

I wonder if Tito Ortiz could beat Charles Manson in a free for all.

The real issue is that whether a person who does not experience fear or compassion (i.e. psycopath)is going to be defeated by someone who has trained to fight within rules and conventions, and also experiences fear and compassion, (consider the UFC guys who generally admit to being afraid before a fight). All things being equal, (strength technique etc,) the mind that is unfettered by fear and compassion, and who has access to the more primal parts of the brain, has a clear advantage over thoughs whose goal is just winning or loosing.