Archive through April 10, 2007

Tim's Discussion Board: Ba Gua Zhang : Bagua Palm Strike: Archive through April 10, 2007
   By Ted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 02:34 am: Edit Post

Just wonderin' if anybody has ever got hit with a open palm strike to the body in a non-cooperative sparring situation, where it hurts real bad. Is the palm strike for real or is it an urban legend?

I did get hit once by a Bagua guy demonstrating a palm strike on me, where i basically let him hit me on the shoulders. It hurts, but i don't think he could pull it off in a real fight. It took him like 2 seconds to set it up and he had to get "real" close to me. I think he was doing it properly though, because it felt like all the energy came from the legs/ground.


   By Jake Burroughs on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 09:18 am: Edit Post

Not sure with who you are working with, but a palm strike isn o different than a punch, only it is with an open hand! Palms hurt!


   By Ted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 12:22 pm: Edit Post

Hi Jake: Never really trained with a palm. Mostly with fists. Never got demo'd with a palm...but I'll take your word for it.

It's just I never saw palms in UFC/MMA's b4...and I think it is a legal blow. Why is that?


   By Jake Burroughs on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 04:30 pm: Edit Post

Can't say, never fought in the octagon of death. I think most people train fist's because they are easy and natural. Next time you see Tim ask him to palm strike you!


   By Tim on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 05:26 pm: Edit Post

Here is a good article on open hand strikes from the pekiti-tirsia point of view:


http://www.pekiti-tirsia.net/openHand.php?lang=en&soundsParam=on&file=openHand


   By Shane on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 05:45 pm: Edit Post

I've seen a great clip of Bas Rutton fighting in Open-Hand fights- it looks rather effective.

I'll try to find the clips when I get home.


   By Tobbe on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 07:17 pm: Edit Post

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs69mMMpbw8&mode=related&search=


   By Tobbe on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 07:33 pm: Edit Post

or
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L_AuvaWIh4&mode=related&search=


   By Ted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 01:16 am: Edit Post

Thanx for the article Tim: I guess I missed UFC 3 where that guy got knocked out by an open hand strike. Those old school UFC single elim. tournaments were classics.

Tobbe/Shane: Those Bas Rutton videos I believe are using Pancrase rules. You can't punch with a closed fist in Pancrase. He would definitely be punching more if the rules allowed it. No way his slap strategy could survive against Chuck Liddell.


   By Richard S. on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 03:58 pm: Edit Post

I will have to watch UFC 3 again. That was a Keith Hackney fight, right? He was a kenpo black belt that fought in a few of the early events.


   By Richard S. on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 04:00 pm: Edit Post

I will have to watch UFC 3 again. That was a Keith Hackney fight, right? He was a kenpo black belt that fought in a few of the early events.


   By Jerry on Sunday, January 14, 2007 - 06:55 pm: Edit Post

"I did get hit once by a Bagua guy demonstrating a palm strike on me, where i basically let him hit me on the shoulders. It hurts, but i don't think he could pull it off in a real fight. It took him like 2 seconds to set it up and he had to get "real" close to me. I think he was doing it properly though, because it felt like all the energy came from the legs/ground."

I'm pretty sure that was me (i recall the incident also), and if I'm the representative of the entire art of baguazhang, then Tung Hai Chuan must be spinning in his grave!

I'm glad to hear that I did it right, and that it hurt; I couldn't tell, and you were wearing a padded jacket too. I thought maybe I hadn't hit hard enough to prove the point because you didn't look very convinced.

However, that was not a palm strike; it was a roundhouse slap. A slap to the shoulder was the only safe and friendly demonstration I could think of!

Of course a roundhouse slap is slower than a straight punch, easy to block, and only to be used in the right situation. I learned that from Tim, btw, and the key to it is to relax the arm.
Naturally you can't hit someone with a roundhouse slap if they have their guard up. Also, btw, I deliberately telegraphed it so you'd be ready for it and not take it the wrong way. But I agree, not often could you land that in an actual fight. I was just trying to make a point.

There are at least four ways to hit someone with an open hand: slap, knife hand strike, spear hand (that's something I've always been kind of skeptical about it), and palm heel strike.
A palm heel strike is a straight blow really quite similar to a straight punch, with the advantage that you don't break your hand quite as easily, and it can be both hard to block and very effective. Try it with one of those punching targets sometime; I think you'll see that you can hit just as hard with the palm strike as the fist. The fist would obviously be better for striking the belly; the palm, I think, would be at least as effective in hitting the head, and not likely to hurt the striker more than the strikee.


   By Ted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 04:49 pm: Edit Post

Jerry...it wasn't you...I don't recall you demonstrating anything on me. I do sorta remember you slapping me one time. The power of the blow isn't from how loud the blow is. The louder it is, the more power is dissipated into sound. A good striker will hit a bag without making loud sounds.

I did remember demonstrating multi-hit punch combos in class to someone else, and you not being impressed... I think we were debating whether linear or circular strikes are better. I'm not sure where you get your judge of what works or not. I think if I were to demonstrate it in front of most people on this board, it would be impressive... Don't get too caught up in the theoretical hype.


   By Jerry on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 01:08 pm: Edit Post

Who said anything about sound?


   By Bob #2 on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 12:50 am: Edit Post

Simon and Garfunkel.


   By Ted on Saturday, January 20, 2007 - 04:46 am: Edit Post

The only time I saw people slap in a fight is in Junior High or when couples get into spats. If it's not sound, what impresses you about the slap? How do you know it works?


   By Kevin Berg on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 02:44 pm: Edit Post

Thought you might find this video interesting.
Looks like a slap could make alot of power if done right. http://www.comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=2473


   By Ted on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 03:27 pm: Edit Post

Kevin, this video looks fake. That's just my impression.

If you want to refine a striking technique, choose one that suits you (palm, chops, backhand, punches, kicks, elbows, knees, maybe even slaps)...and look for arts out there where masters have refined it over the years. Sift through them all, filter out the bad ones, and refine your striking technique. I personally prefer punches, but some people are more suited to using other techniques. There's just not too much material out there on slaps.

I'm not just restricting practice to forms. You can learn how to strike from boxing, kickboxing, or even Tae Kwon Do, where there aren't any forms. All in all, very little material on slaps. I think the problem is that if you train with slaps, there will be very little improvement if you keep training it for 10 years. There's just not enough material out there. That's just my opinion. But if you're convinced that slaps can be trained as an art, go ahead and train on it hard and prove me wrong.


   By Tim on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 05:37 pm: Edit Post

It looks real to me.

That guy fell pretty hard, on concrete, with his hands in his pockets.


   By Troy on Tuesday, April 10, 2007 - 08:07 pm: Edit Post

Looked like he hit him right on the sweet-spot on the chin too.