I just got this book by liang shou yu on ba gua.. anyone know if he is the real deal? just wanna know if he's got any skills

Rasheed,
I've been doing a little lineage research, and I have Liang Shou You down as having learned from Wang Shu Tian and Zheng Huai Xian. Zheng Huai Xian was a Student of Sun Lu Tang who learned from Cheng Ting Hua who learned from Dong hai Chuan. Wang Shu Tian was a Student of Guo Meng Shen and Guo Yun Shen both of which learned from Liu Bao Zhen who reportedly learned from both Dong Hai Chuan and and one of his martial brothers Li Zhen Ching. If this information is correct then his art would be the real thing, and it appeared to be authentic from what I saw in his photos, although I'm no expert. I found his book on Emei Baguazhang very interesting in that he included the chinese text for the songs relating to the art. One of the most interseting things I've learned so far that is no matter what the forms look like, if the principles are the same, then it is Bagua Zhang.

Liang is a nice, approachable guy with definite martial skills. Sean's right: the baguazhang forms in his book are derived from Sun Lutang (although Liang doesn't really use the heel-toe stepping of Sun style). Liang's shuaijiao training shows through in his baguazhang as it does in a lot of his other martial arts, including taijiquan.

Yang Guo Tai teaches another Cheng Tinghua-lineage baguazhang style in Vancouver (he's back in Beijing until early next year). Some of Yang's students have been critical of Liang's baguazhang, saying he doesn't show the rooting or "internal strength" of "real" baguazhang. I don't know . . . he moves a lot better than me (that's not saying much).

Liang's students are a mixed bag as far as skill level goes . . . just as most teachers' students are.

I generally like "Emei Baguazhang," and apply some of the techniques Liang demonstrates there. My only quibble is the format in the form chapters (verbal descriptions not in tandem with the photos)and the Emei lineage claims (but the history chapter and photos are generally good).

It is pricey, but packs in a lot of material. There's not a lot of printed material on baguazhang out there.

Two things that Liang leaves out that most instructional materials on bagua (and xingyi and taiji too)leave out are (1) finishing techniques (i.e., once you've dumped your opponent--stomp v. run)and (2) recovery techniques if you've been thrown (breakfall/evasion/groundfighting).

That's where cross-training comes in. Liang's own background shows he recognizes the value of cross-training.

Speaking of heal-toe stepping....how did that make its way into Bagua? I've always heard that one is not supposed to show the bottom of the foot. Even if this is overlooked... What is the martial application for this? Both Mud Stepping and Crane Stepping have applications. Anyone care to give me some insight?

As I understand them, Mud Stepping and Crane (and chicken)stepping don't have 'applications' they have functions. The function is to teach the student balance and control of body weight. They are taught first, in hopes that by the time the student works up to 'normal' heel-toe stepping the student can keep safe balance when fighting on a slippery surface (ie; mud, ice, gravel).

I've seen masters of many styles that barely lift their feet off the ground and almost seem to glide when they step, like Ueshiba, but when demonstrating stepping, the feet moved in a natural step... the gliding step seemed to me to be more unconscious economy of movement than anything else... but I'm no expert.

In many cultures, it is considered rude to have your legs in a position that display the bottom of the foot to someone (as in crossing your feet upon a table facing someone)... maybe that's what you'd heard.

Hi there,
In an art such as Bagua, with its awareness of tripping and throwing techniques, part of the training is designed to minimise the chances of being tripped or thrown.

The Mud Walking step allows us to have the safest method of movement in this respect as it helps us maintain the shortest distance to the ground at all times, thereby assisting in staying rooted on the move. Not exposing the sole, as I understand it, means that you feet/legs are not easily manipulated and so leaves you less open to trips or throws.

Another function of this step, as it was taught to me, is to train the Soas muscle in order to develop a more connected whole body power. The restriction of not lifting the feet too high helps to engage this muscle, which in turn helps develop more speed and power.

There does seem to be other steps that are also used to train different aspects of movement and strength, like walking on tippy toes.

>There does seem to be other steps that are also used to train different aspects of movement and strength, like walking on tippy toes.<

Like in Ballerina Palm.

Fu Zhensong's bagua forms include maneuvers involving spinning on the heel.

The Cheng Tinghua lineages generally make a big deal out of circle-walking practice with tang ni bu (mud-walking step)as part of basic training. The old guys so the stories go would develop the stepping strength sufficient to break through thick ropes with their shins while slide-stepping. Legend or not, it illustrates the importance placed on rooted stepping, both for stability in movement and low kicks or trapping of the opponent's legs. It seems like both mud-wading and crane stepping would work to engage and strengthen the psoas.

While training in China I asked about the "Emei Baguazhang," and received odd looks and finally smiles. There is no such style known in China. It is looked on like another style Tien Shen Pai, that exists on Taiwan and in the US.

I was told that both Emei and Tian are Mountain Ranges and not martial arts "stlyes" of any kind.

It is a bit confusing.

For mud stepping, good mud-stepping allows you to move in on someone before they see you coming. If you are rooted in your back leg, lead with your knee then mud-step out it doesn't look like you have moved much, that is, until you finish the step by shifting into the front leg.

In that moment you are up on your opponent.

when you practice "mud stepping" moves,
do you where a bikini?
what the hell is mud stepping anyway?
is more effective then dirt,grass or concrete stepping?

i guess you're still stuck in the mud if you didn't reply!
i have a pickup truck if you need a pull!
ps.mud "•••••••"stepping what's next?
walking on water?

marc daoust... u should be charged for all your silly/irrelevant self-humoring posts. i think u reached your limit already

bob! not the number 2! but the #1!!!!!!!!!!!
have you been counting?
if,so? how many as it been?
you talk about my silly/irrelevant self-humoring posts.
but what do you write about?except bitching about my stuff?

bob is boob without an extra o!
and all the love i have for boobs!

Mud stepping is when you lift you back foot straight up, parrellel to the floor, no tilt in foot, you sit on you back leg while you reach out with your front foot, touch toe and push through the entire length of your foot. WHen you parctice long enough there is a 'push/reach' with you foot before it stops. Then you bring you back knee through as you shift into the front leg.

It is standard stepping in traditional bguazhang. It is difficult, one reason you spend hours just walking the circle.

many today do not have the didication, patience or diligence to spend practicing the stepping. You can tell a persons lineage (new wushu or traditional wudhu) by their foor work. Traditional pursues the mud stepping. New wushu walks like you do everyday. It is much easier to learn.

It allows you to move up on someone without them realizing it, until you are one them.

Outside of creating new lineages of baguazhang (emei) and xingi (emei) to make himself the head of the lineage--(he trained in sun baguazhang) the skill and training liang is real and honorable, making what he is doing with the lineage really weird. People who usually do that have no real lineage from training and do not have any skill.

Too bad.